Which horses were truly great?

[Indian Charlie]

Manila is a no brainer.

I would also consider Majestic Prince. Nine wins and a second in ten starts, with that lone loss being as a result of an injury after which he never ran again.

He won some big races and was absolutely brilliant.

Twenty years ago, he always came up on these all time great lists but he's become a forgotten great.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Out of millions and millions and millions of horses, you think 22 is too many?

I like Cannon Shell's list except for maybe Cigar.

For the elite of the elite? Absolutely. In basketball history would you consider the 30th best player of all time to be the elite of the elite just cause there are millions who have played basketball? I wouldn't.

[DogsUp]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

For the elite of the elite? Absolutely. In basketball history would you consider the 30th best player of all time to be the elite of the elite just cause there are millions who have played basketball? I wouldn't.

Are you serious? Here are 50 players..you name the 21 that shouldnt be on the list.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nate Archibald

Paul Arizin

Charles Barkley

Rick Barry

Elgin Baylor

Dave Bing

Larry Bird

Wilt Chamberlain

Bob Cousy

Dave Cowens

Billy Cunningham

Dave DeBusschere

Clyde Drexler

Julius Erving

Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier

George Gervin

Hal Greer

John Havlicek

Elvin Hayes

Magic Johnson

Sam Jones

Michael Jordan

Jerry Lucas

Karl Malone

Moses Malone

Pete Maravich

Kevin McHale

George Mikan

Earl Monroe

Hakeem Olajuwon

Shaquille O'Neal

Robert Parish

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Willis Reed

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

John Stockton

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

Wes Unseld

Bill Walton

Jerry West

Lenny Wilkens

James Worthy

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

For the elite of the elite? Absolutely. In basketball history would you consider the 30th best player of all time to be the elite of the elite just cause there are millions who have played basketball? I wouldn't.

The NBA had its 50 greatest players...

[RollerDoc]

Great topic but just so I can understand and not be reckless in my comments for the future, what do you consider the difference between a great horse vs. a super horse? Or is there no such thing as a super horse? I see that term often on this board.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Great topic but just so I can understand and not be reckless in my comments for the future, what do you consider the difference between a great horse vs. a super horse? Or is there no such thing as a super horse? I see that term often on this board.

I guess elite of the elite would probably be similar to what people are referring to as the superhorse.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

......nice group of horses and a good memory c shell.

[kgar311]

I think Personal Ensign was pretty good

[DogsUp]

I think Zippy Chippy should be considered. 100-0-8-12 is freaking impressive. It is hard to win, but I think it is more hard not to win a race with 100 lifetime starts.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

I think Zippy Chippy should be considered. 100-0-8-12 is freaking impressive. It is hard to win, but I think it is more hard not to win a race with 100 lifetime starts.

There are a few at MNR working on topping his record

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

Very nice list. How about Whirlaway? The only horses on Sniper's list to have won more races are Kingston, Kelso, and Forego. Whirlaway set a Ky Derby record that stood for 21 years. Two-time HOY.

That said, I understand Sniper's wish to try to draw a line under the elite of the elite. Cigar, Alysheba and Sunday Silence were all personal favs, but I couldn't put any of them above the horses in Sniper's list.

--Dunbar

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

Chuck - that is "new york's Easy Goer"

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

Chuck - that is "new york's Easy Goer"

The great Marshall Cassidy

[gales0678]

still can't believe patient Pat Day eneded up on the inside of sunday silence in the preakness and let him get away in the BCC - not 2 of his best days

[miraja2]

So what was his excuse in the Derby again?
I know there is one, but there are so many BS excuses to keep straight when it comes to Easy Goer's defeats to Sunday Silence, that sometimes I can't keep them all straight.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm already having this debate on another forum and it seems as good a time as any to bring it here. Which horses were truly great? For the purposes of this thread great means they were both brilliant and accomplished and the elite of the elite. Ghostzapper was brilliant but not accomplished enough to fit the definition. Cigar was accomplished but not brilliant enough to fit the definition. Here is who I believe fits the truly great label. Who would you remove or add?

Hindoo (1878)
Kingston (1884)
Salvator (1886)
Colin (1905)
Man o War (1917)
War Admiral (1934)
Count Fleet (1940)
Citation (1945)
Tom Fool (1949)
Native Dancer (1950)
Nashua (1952)
Swaps (1952)
Round Table (1954)
Kelso (1957)
Buckpasser (1963)
Dr Fager (1964)
Damascus (1964)
Secretriat (1970)
Forego (1970)
Seattle Slew (1974)
Affirmed (1975)
Spectacular Bid (1976)


I'm only talking North American based horses and not giving anyone a break cause they are a filly. If their biggest accomplishment is that they beat the boys and are great "for a filly" that doesn't count. All of these horses beat the boys every race and would be otherwordly if they were fillies.

old rosebud. when man o war was making his mark, he was compared to old rosebud.
exterminator, colin, personal ensign

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

old rosebud. when man o war was making his mark, he was compared to old rosebud.
exterminator, colin, personal ensign

Danzig, I am curious. Where do you rank Alydar on this subject?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Danzig, I am curious. Where do you rank Alydar on this subject?

alydar had the great misfortune to be in the same crop as affirmed. affirmed got the best of alydar far more often than alydar returned the favor. most years alydar would have been called one of the best of all time, had he not faced a monster.
i think a lot of what made affirmed so great is that he had alydar as a measuring stick. i would have no problem with alydar being spoken of as one of the best the sport has seen, as i think he was.
it's funny that he sired another horse that faced the same situation years later. easy goer was one hell of a horse, but sunday silence beat him 3 out of 4, altho of course one was just a head bob. the picture of those two at the wire of the preakness is my favorite photo ever of a horse race. it's what we all want to see, and almost never do!

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

alydar had the great misfortune to be in the same crop as affirmed. affirmed got the best of alydar far more often than alydar returned the favor. most years alydar would have been called one of the best of all time, had he not faced a monster.
i think a lot of what made affirmed so great is that he had alydar as a measuring stick. i would have no problem with alydar being spoken of as one of the best the sport has seen, as i think he was.
it's funny that he sired another horse that faced the same situation years later. easy goer was one hell of a horse, but sunday silence beat him 3 out of 4, altho of course one was just a head bob. the picture of those two at the wire of the preakness is my favorite photo ever of a horse race. it's what we all want to see, and almost never do!

Good stuff and thanks. I have done some reading and research on this awesome Alydar. I wish I could have seen him run when my interest in this sport had piqued in the past five years. I have also read the sad story of perhaps his contraversial death and the whole Calumet Farms corruption episode.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Danzig

old rosebud. when man o war was making his mark, he was compared to old rosebud.
exterminator, colin, personal ensign

I'm probably unfairly punishing Old Rosebud (like his owners did) for running far too long. Still pretty cool for a horse to be champion 2yo and then champion handicap horse at 6. I already have Colin on the list. Exterminator has a strong case.