Tues. 08/05 ATR what a depressing show

[DogsUp]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

One of the biggest problems that this sport faces is that the "racing media" has often consisted of flowery prose about lovely horses and press releases announcing "news" like a post race concert series. Adding to this is the inhouse "racing experts" who often know little to nothing about handicapping, training, riding or the historical aspects of the sport. One of the great things about this meet is the siros seminars which feature guys who actually get the sport, understand the wagering and handicapping aspect and realize the historical signifigance or lack thereof of certain performances and events. Steve's show which is unique in it is a daily show that needs to fill 3 hours a day is in many ways the equilivent of the Siros show on the air. He is passionate about the sport and attempts to educate the general listening public about the "other side of the fence" which is often the truth. In my case I am not afraid to tell the truth and speak in plain terms unlike some of the diplomatic trainers that you mentioned. Maybe you want to believe that Jess jackson is some wonderful guy and curlin is a racing god and Dutrow is colorful. Maybe you want to believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus too? This is 2008 and people want information and they want educated opinions. Steve and I give you both. If you choose not to like what we say, your call. But I will continue to swoon when people need to look at the beyer figure before determining whether a race was good or not and when a horse who has done nothing really special gets his "legacy" talked about. Am I excited over the prospect of Curlin in the Woodward? Not particularly. Would it be an interesting story if he ran against BB? Sure. If it is Curlin against the 7 dwarfs that ran in the Whitney or Steven Foster, how exciting is that? Is Curlin running in the Japan Cup Dirt an exciting development? No. Do I think that his 4 year old campaign has been "great for racing" like the other sheep? Not really. maybe because i have seen great horses up close and personal. maybe because I grew up in Saratoga and saw truly great races and still remember when horses needed to run in races to have a "legacy".

If you want fluff and bs, listen to Dave Johnsons show.

I get this post. However, I have a couple of issues with this. I do not believe one can compare Curlin and Big Brown to horses of past years. The game has changed too much. Curlin and Big Brown are the two most important horses that are racing in the U.S today. Talking about one's legacy is pointless. I think one should speak the truth regardless if it is rosey or black. One has to recognize what Big Brown and Curlin has done based on their racing career. They cannot help the quality of their foes. No matter what your opinion, you have to give respect to these two horses simply based on their wins:not beyers, times, foes, or mythical matchups.

[-BT-]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

I get this post. However, I have a couple of issues with this. I do not believe one can compare Curlin and Big Brown to horses of past years. The game has changed too much. Curlin and Big Brown are the two most important horses that are racing in the U.S today. Talking about one's legacy is pointless. I think one should speak the truth regardless if it is rosey or black. One has to recognize what Big Brown and Curlin has done based on their racing career. They cannot help the quality of their foes. No matter what your opinion, you have to give respect to these two horses simply based on their wins:not beyers, times, foes, or mythical matchups.

and?

Deweycheatumnhowe


-bt-

[DogsUp]

Originally Posted by -BT-

and?

Deweycheatumnhowe


-bt-

Oh the old Attorney joke. Good stuff right there.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

I get this post. However, I have a couple of issues with this. I do not believe one can compare Curlin and Big Brown to horses of past years. The game has changed too much. Curlin and Big Brown are the two most important horses that are racing in the U.S today. Talking about one's legacy is pointless. I think one should speak the truth regardless if it is rosey or black. One has to recognize what Big Brown and Curlin has done based on their racing career. They cannot help the quality of their foes. No matter what your opinion, you have to give respect to these two horses simply based on their wins:not beyers, times, foes, or mythical matchups.

I understand what you are saying. I said on the air exactly what you said in your last sentence but the connections are the ones who provide fodder for talk radio shows and newspaper columnists. Jackson is the one who continues to talk of Curlins legacy. Iavarone and Dutrow have certainly said enough not to have to rehash here. When they make the statements like they have, they are the ones who are putting their horses in a historical context. Big Brown has won the Fl Derby, Ky Derby, Preakness and Haskell. Pretty good but far from much different than any number of horses in the last 10 years, none of which had connections that wanted praise heaped upon their horse like the IEAH gang and Dutrow. As far as Curlin, he has won the Ark Derby, Preakness, Gold Cup, Classic, Dubai WC, and Steven Foster. Pretty nice record but not that different than Silver Charm or Real Quiet who never had their "legacy" discussed in hushed tones. They may be the most visable horses racing right now but that doesnt mean that we cant critique their performances (as BB's simply wasnt very inspiring) or their place in history (where exactly does Curlin fit?) in critical fashion.

[DogsUp]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I understand what you are saying. I said on the air exactly what you said in your last sentence but the connections are the ones who provide fodder for talk radio shows and newspaper columnists. Jackson is the one who continues to talk of Curlins legacy. Iavarone and Dutrow have certainly said enough not to have to rehash here. When they make the statements like they have, they are the ones who are putting their horses in a historical context. Big Brown has won the Fl Derby, Ky Derby, Preakness and Haskell. Pretty good but far from much different than any number of horses in the last 10 years, none of which had connections that wanted praise heaped upon their horse like the IEAH gang and Dutrow. As far as Curlin, he has won the Ark Derby, Preakness, Gold Cup, Classic, Dubai WC, and Steven Foster. Pretty nice record but not that different than Silver Charm or Real Quiet who never had their "legacy" discussed in hushed tones. They may be the most visable horses racing right now but that doesnt mean that we cant critique their performances (as BB's simply wasnt very inspiring) or their place in history (where exactly does Curlin fit?) in critical fashion.

Very good point. I like when owners and trainers stay quiet and let the horse do the talking. Call me old fashion, but I do not like self promotion. Since you are a trainer...why do you think "legacy" is so important to them? Is it all ego driven?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

Very good point. I like when owners and trainers stay quiet and let the horse do the talking. Call me old fashion, but I do not like self promotion. Since you are a trainer...why do you think "legacy" is so important to them? Is it all ego driven?

In Jacksons case absolutely. The IEAH guys are trying to "promote" their investment in him. They took a large gamble when they decided to keep the majority of the horse as a stallion. They have lost a lot of "value" with his vunerability as he is not the "superhorse" they would have led you to believe. Not to mention they are still selling shares of IEAH and perhapps believe that any publicity is good publicity

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

I get this post. However, I have a couple of issues with this. I do not believe one can compare Curlin and Big Brown to horses of past years. The game has changed too much. Curlin and Big Brown are the two most important horses that are racing in the U.S today. Talking about one's legacy is pointless. I think one should speak the truth regardless if it is rosey or black. One has to recognize what Big Brown and Curlin has done based on their racing career. They cannot help the quality of their foes. No matter what your opinion, you have to give respect to these two horses simply based on their wins:not beyers, times, foes, or mythical matchups.

why?

we're supposed to ignore what we've seen, what we know, and just grin like village idiots while the pretty horsies run? i don't think so.

I think the show has improved quite a bit.
This racing year provided many opportunities to voice some real
concerns at the same time the show was "coming of age".

Enough confidence to be critical came at a very good time...
My view anyway.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Is Curlin running in the Japan Cup Dirt an exciting development? No. .

I would consider that a pretty big deal. exciting? it would be to me.
has a Breeders Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup sweep ever happened before, or even been attempted.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I would consider that a pretty big deal. exciting? it would be to me.
has a Breeders Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup sweep ever happened before, or even been attempted.

Japan Cup DIRT, not the Japan Cup. It is the secondary race

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Japan Cup DIRT, not the Japan Cup. It is the secondary race

yeah so? i assumed you were referring to the dirt race. i still don't get your point. Japan Cup exciting, Japan dirt cup not exciting? or nothing about Curlin racing in Japan would be exciting?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

yeah so? i assumed you were referring to the dirt race. i still don't get your point. Japan Cup exciting, Japan dirt cup not exciting? or nothing about Curlin racing in Japan would be exciting?

Japan Cup Dirt is like the 3rd place game in the NIT. Shipping to another country is nice but skipping the Breeders Cup to run in a race that no one really cares about outside of Japan (quick name 1 winner?) is kind of redundant to me. Not to mention he very well lose because the track there is like a plowed field. I would much rather see him on poly in the Classic which would do a whole lot more for racing and his legacy than going to Japan to run in the middle of the night against a bunch of horses that no one even knows exists. At least the Japan Cup attracts top foreign competition.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

One of the biggest problems that this sport faces is that the "racing media" has often consisted of flowery prose about lovely horses and press releases announcing "news" like a post race concert series. Adding to this is the inhouse "racing experts" who often know little to nothing about handicapping, training, riding or the historical aspects of the sport. One of the great things about this meet is the siros seminars which feature guys who actually get the sport, understand the wagering and handicapping aspect and realize the historical signifigance or lack thereof of certain performances and events. Steve's show which is unique in it is a daily show that needs to fill 3 hours a day is in many ways the equilivent of the Siros show on the air. He is passionate about the sport and attempts to educate the general listening public about the "other side of the fence" which is often the truth. In my case I am not afraid to tell the truth and speak in plain terms unlike some of the diplomatic trainers that you mentioned. Maybe you want to believe that Jess jackson is some wonderful guy and curlin is a racing god and Dutrow is colorful. Maybe you want to believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus too? This is 2008 and people want information and they want educated opinions. Steve and I give you both. If you choose not to like what we say, your call. But I will continue to swoon when people need to look at the beyer figure before determining whether a race was good or not and when a horse who has done nothing really special gets his "legacy" talked about. Am I excited over the prospect of Curlin in the Woodward? Not particularly. Would it be an interesting story if he ran against BB? Sure. If it is Curlin against the 7 dwarfs that ran in the Whitney or Steven Foster, how exciting is that? Is Curlin running in the Japan Cup Dirt an exciting development? No. Do I think that his 4 year old campaign has been "great for racing" like the other sheep? Not really. maybe because i have seen great horses up close and personal. maybe because I grew up in Saratoga and saw truly great races and still remember when horses needed to run in races to have a "legacy".

If you want fluff and bs, listen to Dave Johnsons show.

so....you're not a fluffer then?????

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sdjcom

During the triple crown series Steve, Haskin, and others said not to take Dutrow to serious because that's his personality, he's a new yorker, brashgodocious and really adds a little spice to the racing game.Now he said a few things about Curlin, which are factually true, and Steve ripped him apart. He must have been in a bad mood. Also this Chuck Simon is the most negative trainer I've ever heard, he has nothing positive to say about anybody or anything. He downgrades the Japan Cup Surburban, Big Brown,
I know he is entitled to his opinion, but he only talks about the negative. What a difference between his interview, and someone like Larry Jones,Shug
Madella, Frankel, Zito and that'smy opinion! Let me say that most of the shows are great, just a bummer yesterday.

SDJ,

The Brown/Dutrow story has evolved since Triple Crown season. Dutrow's comments the other day were just ridiculous... they deserved to be derided.

Chuck understands more about the game than most anyone and is not shy about voicing his opinion. There is no mainstream media around to intelligently discuss racing on a daily basis like ATR can, and I do my best to have as many topical guests as possible to provide and promote that discussion.

[Antitrust32]

Steve,

usurp and largess??? I looked them up and got the point (I think) but I am truly jealous that you can remember words like that... Not just those words but a million tough ones.

Now, I've been around you a lot so I'm fairly confident that you do not carry around a thesaures. But how can you remember so many big words! Do you memorize poetry to help your brain or are you just plain awesome??

[sdjcom]

Ok I Stand Corrected Now Lets Have A Vote How Many Of You Want Me To Quit Posting So You Don't Have To Try And Read My Typing And Spelling? Cast Your Vote Yeah Or Nay I'll Stand By The Vote

[AeWingnut]

I don't understand your posts

is there a reason you capitalize every word?

no capital letters is prefereable to what you do.

[hi_im_god]

just because you lay on a cross, don't expect me to do the nailing.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by sdjcom

Ok I Stand Corrected Now Lets Have A Vote How Many Of You Want Me To Quit Posting So You Don't Have To Try And Read My Typing And Spelling? Cast Your Vote Yeah Or Nay I'll Stand By The Vote

Dude, your capitalization of every single word is the single most retarded thing on this board.

I'd rather listen to three hours of pg1985 explain all his exotic wagers than read a post of yours.

[zippyneedsawin]

Why didn't you capitalize every word in the thread title?