Just in case anyone still thinks Prado can ride

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

I guess you're right, it takes skill to find trouble and get trapped on the rail in a 5-horse field.

The horse sucked up and got loose in the stretch with plenty of room to run. She got the best trip in the field, running the least amount of ground.
Would you have preferred she was with the pace, like the winner? She would've lost that way, too. The bottom line is that she wasn't good enough. When sprinters, that are stretching out slightly, allow cutback horses to run with the pace, THEY CAN'T WIN cause they can't finish with them.

Here are the last three splits of the race: 23.54 23.04 11.37 (projects to 22.74).

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

The horse sucked up and got loose in the stretch with plenty of room to run. She got the best trip in the field, running the least amount of ground.
Would you have preferred she was with the pace, like the winner? She would've lost that way, too. The bottom line is that she wasn't good enough. When sprinters, that are stretching out slightly, allow cutback horses to run with the pace, THEY CAN'T WIN cause they can't finish with them.

Here are the last three splits of the race: 23.54 23.04 11.37 (projects to 22.74).

It looked like to me that Jazzy lost some momentum about a furlong out as she was still stuck behind the 3,4 & 5.. by the time she got room to get through... it was too late. I agree, she did save ground the whole way, but what good is it when you don't have a clear run in the stretch?

[Bobby Fischer]

Prado is generally a solid jockey.

He generally sits a nice trip from gate to backstretch. He can get out of the gate and also race-ride others out of the gate.

If use of the whip were banned, only Jeremy Rose would benefit more than edgar. His slow deliberate action does little to rouse a horse. He probably gets as much from showing the whip as he does with his metronome action. With his left he is talented at getting a horse to swing to the outside when needed.

When Prado has much the best horse he wins his share. He very rarely wins with a worse horse than his competition. In other words he doesn't win surprising tactics or exploiting a track configuration or bias.

With certain types of horses on dirt, Prado can be counted on to preserve a top three finish.


In the replay of Contentious, he appears to allow Contentious to make headway too fast, almost as if he let out "too much". However I do not disagree with the idea of him making some gradual headway at that point. Contentious showed no response in the stretch and would not have won with any jockey, regardless of any toll that the headway on the backstretch.
We are bitching about the difference between 6th and 3rd or 4th. I do not see Contentious as contesting the top two spots in that lane. The #8 was the superior animal that day. You can see the #8 stampede at the break and secure a rail spot. Racing close to the pace he still finished well. The #5 had the superior kick that race, even accounting for rides. Contentious(#10) was simply not as good as either that day, no matter who or how we imagine a dream trip moving her up.

[Linny]

I was less than thrilled with the ride I got from Prado on Waquoit's Love in that same race (as Jazzy.) She's a big mare and they lost position and ended up dropping out the back of a tightly bunched field. When they turned for hom he was stuck trying to get this huge mare out from a tangle. She came flying late and missed by a nose. He's not as sharp at grass sprints as some.
Of course then he comes back to beat me in the next 2 races.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

gomez is far from the best... he is easily the most overated though.
we could go on for days about who the best is, there is really no way to tell, because trainers go hot/cold all the time, and when that happens, its sometimes not the jocks fault. as for gomez, IMO i would rather have... JV, kent, coa, julian l.... thats just 4, im sure there are more.

Agree with BlackThroat, I haven't always been a fan of Gomez on a ride by ride basis but he is the most consistent and he can get a horse to the wire first who might not normally get there. JV is very solid but he has his very poor periods. Last summer when he could stay on a mount he was absolutely terrible. Kenny D. (he hates being called Kenny) has an occasional good to great ride but is incredibly unpredictable. He is a know it all and if he feels your horse has a chance he'll ride him/her. If not, he doesn't. And given that his judgement is not good on that question, he's cost horse players money over the years. Surely you don't think Big Brown was a unique ride for him. And there is more than one trainer who has went to Sellito, his agent, and told him to "lose my number". But he now has his house up for sale in NY and hopefully he'll be gone from here for awhile.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

gomez is far from the best... he is easily the most overated though.
we could go on for days about who the best is, there is really no way to tell, because trainers go hot/cold all the time, and when that happens, its sometimes not the jocks fault. as for gomez, IMO i would rather have... JV, kent, coa, julian l.... thats just 4, im sure there are more.

Now Coa is interesting. He is a good rider but his aggressiveness gets to him and he'll race ride himself out of contention. Plus I don't tend to like Joc's who don't like horses. So I am not sure where I am with him. Julian, where for arte thou, Julian. His head has gotten too big I hear and is having problems this year. That Cobra Venem sunk more than one boat!

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Now Coa is interesting. He is a good rider but his aggressiveness gets to him and he'll race ride himself out of contention. Plus I don't tend to like Joc's who don't like horses. So I am not sure where I am with him. Julian, where for arte thou, Julian. His head has gotten too big I hear and is having problems this year. That Cobra Venem sunk more than one boat!

julian has the most upside of anyone... great hands, and considering he was first call for patrick b, i think he's done very well under the circumstances.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

julian has the most upside of anyone... great hands, and considering he was first call for patrick b, i think he's done very well under the circumstances.

True. I may be biased against anyone connected to Biancone.

[Bobby Fischer]

if we are talking all about jockeys, give me Dominguez, Flores or Mike Smith in a turf route with the controlling speed. Even better with an inside post and short run to the turn.

Borel or Desormeaux on a dirt route

I'll take Gomez on synthetic track. Bejarano aint bad either.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by GBBob

huh??
do tell

The whole story is very funny but I'm not telling it here. The part with Johnny on the plane just showed that he's a good guy. We were last on the plane, and I had an aisle seat, and the guy with the middle had conveniently taken my seat. When I asked him nicely to move he told me to go whatever myself. Let's just say Johnny was about to move the guy before I said it wasn't worth it.

I was impressed.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You know it's the horses that actually do the work right?

Just like no sane man will phuck with a jockey on an airplane, there are situations at the track that suit certain skill sets more than others.

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

if we are talking all about jockeys, give me Dominguez, Flores or Mike Smith in a turf route with the controlling speed. Even better with an inside post and short run to the turn.

Borel or Desormeaux on a dirt route

I'll take Gomez on synthetic track. Bejarano aint bad either.

i love borel

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

if we are talking all about jockeys, give me Dominguez, Flores or Mike Smith in a turf route with the controlling speed. Even better with an inside post and short run to the turn.

Borel or Desormeaux on a dirt route

I'll take Gomez on synthetic track. Bejarano aint bad either.

did you say mike smith?lolololoololololol

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Good luck with that outlook.

sadly any jockey could kick my butt on or off an airplane. I would do damage to myself by swinging hard. 10 years ago... or any big guy in decent shape could smash a jockey. On an airplane that big guy is in cramped quarters lol. I can't even stand up on a airplane without my head touching the ceiling and it is hard enough to scoot around the seats. A jockey has no restrictions. He is throwing haymakers , roundhouse kicks , juking and jiving. That big guy hes fighting can't even throw a big punch or standup straight. Klitscho the Heavyweight Champ might lose to the middleweight champ ... on an airplane. You don't believe me get into a duel with a jockey... on an airplane.

I don't think that's what you were driving at, but you are missing the point.
Go watch Mission Approved on cal racing. Dominguez wins the Singspiel Stakes on an inferior animal with a great ride.

Go watch Wheels Up At Noon in his last race at Delaware. Jeremy Rose wins the Eight Thirty Stakes with an inferior animal by navigating the chuteTurn and 1st Turn in a great ride.

like every other discipline, jockeys have their own strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes they affect the outcome of a race.

believe it or not

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

did you say mike smith?lolololoololololol

yea, he is surprisingly good on a turf route with the controlling speed. That is pretty much the only thing he does at a high level compared with other jockeys.

Disagree?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

sadly any jockey could kick my butt on or off an airplane. I would do damage to myself by swinging hard. 10 years ago... or any big guy in decent shape could smash a jockey. On an airplane that big guy is in cramped quarters lol. I can't even stand up on a airplane without my head touching the ceiling and it is hard enough to scoot around the seats. A jockey has no restrictions. He is throwing haymakers , roundhouse kicks , juking and jiving. That big guy hes fighting can't even throw a big punch or standup straight. Klitscho the Heavyweight Champ might lose to the middleweight champ ... on an airplane. You don't believe me get into a duel with a jockey... on an airplane.

I don't think that's what you were driving at, but you are missing the point.
Go watch Mission Approved on cal racing. Dominguez wins the Singspiel Stakes on an inferior animal with a great ride.

Go watch Wheels Up At Noon in his last race at Delaware. Jeremy Rose wins the Eight Thirty Stakes with an inferior animal by navigating the chuteTurn and 1st Turn in a great ride.

like every other discipline, jockeys have their own strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes they affect the outcome of a race.

believe it or not

In regards to Mission Approved - I'm not so sure about the inferior animal part. . . or the great ride by Dominguez part. He did what he was supposed to do - go to the lead on a lone speed horse and slow it down. I'm sure their plan from the beginning was to try and steal it. . . it was the right ride - not necessarily a great ride.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In regards to Mission Approved - I'm not so sure about the inferior animal part. . . or the great ride by Dominguez part. He did what he was supposed to do - go to the lead on a lone speed horse and slow it down. I'm sure their plan from the beginning was to try and steal it. . . it was the right ride - not necessarily a great ride.

Coa was originally scheduled and only switched off because of injury. Do you think Coa wins that race?

I think Coa loses.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

That's silly. Coa had been aboard the horse for 3 of his previous 5 wins, including 2 paceless, alone on the lead wire to wire wins.

You're making sense Hossy...stop it.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

yea, he is surprisingly good on a turf route with the controlling speed. That is pretty much the only thing he does at a high level compared with other jockeys.

Disagree?

well big guy any jockey that has conrolling speed..has an advantage but mile smith is terrible the last 3 years on anything..id give his mounts to c hill before him....

[Bobby Fischer]

Just a case of seeing something totally different. I saw a masterful ride, exhibiting the wire to wire skills on a turf route that I believe very few posses. There is no one in new york at the moment that can even execute top class efforts wire-to-wire on a turf route, and so often the opportunity arises. To me it was one of the better rides of the year, although it was definetly a niche ride, and not say a classic race on dirt. Rahy's Attorney was clearly the best in the race from my perspective. I couldn't see Coa, Gomez, Velasquez, or Prado win that race 2 times out of five with Mission Approved. I would expect them to fade out of the exacta at least.

I do respect your opinions and agree to disagree.