HUGE Cavs trade

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ben Wallace is overrated in what facet of the game? Defense or rebounding? Who thinks he can do more than that? With a 4 man rotation of him, Ilgaugaskas, Anderson V and Smith, he wont have to play big minutes and can go hard all the time. Wally Z is there strictly as a shooter which is something they needed. Delonte played himself into the dog house in Seattle but can play point and is a good 3 point shooter with a small contract that was basically a throw in. Everybody is forgetting Joe Smith. He is a big man that can score and is a better all around player than Gooden. Are you guys forgetting that they beat Detroit pretty much without Hughes? Are you forgetting that Hughes contract is just as outrageous as Wallaces except Wallace fits his role better than Hughes did in his? Just because they went to the Finals last year doesnt mean they didnt need to adjust. They were screwed by the cap before the trade and now they are screwed still but have better players with defined roles. I dont know how that makes this a bad deal for Cleveland. What I dont understand is Chicago's thinking.

Oh save it..ya just can't talk to some of these people.

[JJP]

As a Bull fan, I think Paxson is a genius for getting rid of that bum Wallace. He is awful, lazy and very overpaid. His attitude is cavalier at best (couldn't resist that one). Wallace clearly had become a derisive influence in the locker room. Getting Larry Hughes and Gooden in return is a lot more than I expected to get for that stiff.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by JJP

As a Bull fan, I think Paxson is a genius for getting rid of that bum Wallace. He is awful, lazy and very overpaid. His attitude is cavalier at best (couldn't resist that one). Wallace clearly had become a derisive influence in the locker room. Getting Larry Hughes and Gooden in return is a lot more than I expected to get for that stiff.

You probably love what Isiah is doing with the Knicks too. I am amazed that there are people that think this was a good move for Chicago. Remember that genius was the one who signed him for 30% more than anyone else was offering. Though the they did get rid of a big contract the trade was Isiahish in that they traded one bad contract for another, downgraded at one position and added a player at another position they didnt need. I suppose if Gordon walks and Hughes takes his spot then you could say they downgraded at two positions, didnt free up cap space and also gave a away a draft pick. Call me crazy but I find it hard to believe getting rid of Wallace was worth all the other negatives. Of course maybe he is trying to lose more games to get a better lottery position for the new GM.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You probably love what Isiah is doing with the Knicks too. I am amazed that there are people that think this was a good move for Chicago. Remember that genius was the one who signed him for 30% more than anyone else was offering. Though the they did get rid of a big contract the trade was Isiahish in that they traded one bad contract for another, downgraded at one position and added a player at another position they didnt need. I suppose if Gordon walks and Hughes takes his spot then you could say they downgraded at two positions, didnt free up cap space and also gave a away a draft pick. Call me crazy but I find it hard to believe getting rid of Wallace was worth all the other negatives. Of course maybe he is trying to lose more games to get a better lottery position for the new GM.

Well..the edit was interesting at least

I'm not sure what you posted when the Bulls signed Wallace, but at the time I don't think there were many doing much else other than calling Paxson a genius. Considering where they were as a team at that point, where they were drafting and what they needed...it seemed like an inspired and agressive move. In hindsight, I think it was more that the rest of the team didn't end up where they should have been vs Wallace not getting them there. Either way, I don't know how you could have watched the Bulls in the last 12 months and said that getting rid of WAllace was a detriment.

I really think that at worse, the trade was a wash for the Bulls, but not the travesty that you make it out to be.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You probably love what Isiah is doing with the Knicks too. I am amazed that there are people that think this was a good move for Chicago. Remember that genius was the one who signed him for 30% more than anyone else was offering. Though the they did get rid of a big contract the trade was Isiahish in that they traded one bad contract for another, downgraded at one position and added a player at another position they didnt need. I suppose if Gordon walks and Hughes takes his spot then you could say they downgraded at two positions, didnt free up cap space and also gave a away a draft pick. Call me crazy but I find it hard to believe getting rid of Wallace was worth all the other negatives. Of course maybe he is trying to lose more games to get a better lottery position for the new GM.

I'm not sure that is such a bad thing either anymore, although I guess someone has to score for them..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Well..the edit was interesting at least

I'm not sure what you posted when the Bulls signed Wallace, but at the time I don't think there were many doing much else other than calling Paxson a genius. Considering where they were as a team at that point, where they were drafting and what they needed...it seemed like an inspired and agressive move. In hindsight, I think it was more that the rest of the team didn't end up where they should have been vs Wallace not getting them there. Either way, I don't know how you could have watched the Bulls in the last 12 months and said that getting rid of WAllace was a detriment.

I really think that at worse, the trade was a wash for the Bulls, but not the travesty that you make it out to be.

Well coming from a noted NBA follower such as yourself I would find it interesting that you and the other Bulls fans choose to ignore the fact that no one was bidding for Wallace especially for 4 years at that price. Detroit was offering much less and simply let him walk which essentially killed their chances to win the title. The Bulls issues run far greater than Ben Wallace and that contract that all Bulls fans seem to resent. The fact that Deng is sleepwalking or hurt or both due to his contract or trade rumors. That Gordon resents not being signed. That Heinrich looks like he aged 20 years during the off season. That they have no inside scoring to speak of because they draft athletic guys that lack basketball knowledge or skills like thomas and Noah. That Nocionni is the only consistent guy they have and he is a zero on defense?

Since you dont watch much NBA let me give you a quickover view of what you got. For 14 mill a year a sullen, no dimensional guard that shoots poorly, is average at all other phases of the game and was so valuble to Cleveland that they accomplished most of their improbable playoff run without him. Gooden rebounds pretty good and can hit an open 10 foot baseline shot but give you little else. he is really not much different than Thomas or Noah, just has a funny looking beard.

Since you seem to feel that I am somehow picking on the Bulls let me post what Bill Simmons wrote about it on ESPN.com


On the flip side, the John Paxson era is starting to resemble the Britney Spears era -- tons of promise, tons of hype, a startling turn and now he's one more bad move away from chain-smoking in a hospital gown while speaking with a British accent. If you had told a Bulls fans two years ago that everything (and by "everything," I'm referring to a five-year odyssey spent stockpiling lottery picks and creating cap space) was leading toward a 2008 deadline deal that netted them Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden, they would have punched you in the face and then they would have punched you in the face again. But that's where we are. All things considered, the Wallace contract was the single most damaging front-office decision of this decade that didn't involve Chris Wallace.

[Mortimer]

Well...they didn't need the players they traded nor the ones the got in return tonight. 8 guys...2 fresh out of the minors.




This is a very strange team.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

Well...they didn't need the players they traded nor the ones the got in return tonight. 8 guys...2 fresh out of the minors.




This is a very strange team.

Washington is in a coma. That was ugly. There were times when the Cavs had 2 guys on the court who had ANY chance of making a basket and still they got open or they didnt double Lebron. That ship be sinking

[Cannon Shell]

I was proud of Eric Snow for scoring and not collapsing from exhaustion. Tonight he was worth every bit of that 8 mill.

[Mortimer]

OK.....that's enough out of you sir.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well coming from a noted NBA follower such as yourself I would find it interesting that you and the other Bulls fans choose to ignore the fact that no one was bidding for Wallace especially for 4 years at that price. Detroit was offering much less and simply let him walk which essentially killed their chances to win the title. The Bulls issues run far greater than Ben Wallace and that contract that all Bulls fans seem to resent. The fact that Deng is sleepwalking or hurt or both due to his contract or trade rumors. That Gordon resents not being signed. That Heinrich looks like he aged 20 years during the off season. That they have no inside scoring to speak of because they draft athletic guys that lack basketball knowledge or skills like thomas and Noah. That Nocionni is the only consistent guy they have and he is a zero on defense?

Since you dont watch much NBA let me give you a quickover view of what you got. For 14 mill a year a sullen, no dimensional guard that shoots poorly, is average at all other phases of the game and was so valuble to Cleveland that they accomplished most of their improbable playoff run without him. Gooden rebounds pretty good and can hit an open 10 foot baseline shot but give you little else. he is really not much different than Thomas or Noah, just has a funny looking beard.

Since you seem to feel that I am somehow picking on the Bulls let me post what Bill Simmons wrote about it on ESPN.com


On the flip side, the John Paxson era is starting to resemble the Britney Spears era -- tons of promise, tons of hype, a startling turn and now he's one more bad move away from chain-smoking in a hospital gown while speaking with a British accent. If you had told a Bulls fans two years ago that everything (and by "everything," I'm referring to a five-year odyssey spent stockpiling lottery picks and creating cap space) was leading toward a 2008 deadline deal that netted them Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden, they would have punched you in the face and then they would have punched you in the face again. But that's where we are. All things considered, the Wallace contract was the single most damaging front-office decision of this decade that didn't involve Chris Wallace.

lol...had a feeling that was coming

So how is Deng going weird, Heinrich aging and Gordon wanting Shaq money Paxon's fault? I really don't want to sit here and defend him ad nauseaum, but if you can honestly tell me that 2 years ago you didn't think they were ready to go big time, I would be surprised.

Bull's fans don't resent Wallace's contract. They resent that from the day he joined that team, they never progressed the way they should have. You seem to think it's the GMs fault ( comparing him to Isaah), but I think there are plenty of places to look

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

lol...had a feeling that was coming

So how is Deng going weird, Heinrich aging and Gordon wanting Shaq money Paxon's fault? I really don't want to sit here and defend him ad nauseaum, but if you can honestly tell me that 2 years ago you didn't think they were ready to go big time, I would be surprised.

Bull's fans don't resent Wallace's contract. They resent that from the day he joined that team, they never progressed the way they should have. You seem to think it's the GMs fault ( comparing him to Isaah), but I think there are plenty of places to look

I admit I was stunned the Bulls were as good as they were last year and surprised at how bad they have been this year. It is Paxtons fault that he signed Wallace and botched the Kobe to the Bulls drama so that half the team was waiting for the hammer to drop. The contract disputes with Deng and Gordon may not be his fault per se but he didnt do anything to ease the pain.

I thought the Bulls progressed amazingly well last year with Wallace. The GM has not put together a team that is very good as of today or a situation where they can get much better in the near future. The coach already got axed. Now Wallace. Next stop Jimmy P's.

The truth is after getting MJ for all those years Bull fans deserve a dose of Hughes to even out the karma. He is like Quinten Dailey without the sexually assaults....except Dailey was a better shooter.

[Mortimer]

Perhaps Coach Pants should take over.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You probably love what Isiah is doing with the Knicks too. I am amazed that there are people that think this was a good move for Chicago. Remember that genius was the one who signed him for 30% more than anyone else was offering. Though the they did get rid of a big contract the trade was Isiahish in that they traded one bad contract for another, downgraded at one position and added a player at another position they didnt need. I suppose if Gordon walks and Hughes takes his spot then you could say they downgraded at two positions, didnt free up cap space and also gave a away a draft pick. Call me crazy but I find it hard to believe getting rid of Wallace was worth all the other negatives. Of course maybe he is trying to lose more games to get a better lottery position for the new GM.

The only reason I would love what Isiah is doing to the Knicks is that I don't like the Knicks. Getting rid of a clubhouse cancer is what Paxson did; Isiah seems to love to acquire them. If the Bulls would've outright cut Wallace, it would be addition by subtraction. Forget what Wallace was 3 of 4 years ago.....he's clearly not the same player and a big distraction off the court.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by JJP

The only reason I would love what Isiah is doing to the Knicks is that I don't like the Knicks. Getting rid of a clubhouse cancer is what Paxson did; Isiah seems to love to acquire them. If the Bulls would've outright cut Wallace, it would be addition by subtraction. Forget what Wallace was 3 of 4 years ago.....he's clearly not the same player and a big distraction off the court.

I have no problems with them getting rid of Wallace but what they got in return. Hughes is black hole and Gooden is not what they need. Plus gave up a draft pick even if it is a second rounder it reduces their flexability in future deals. If they cut him and ate the contract that would have been a better move than having to eat Hughes and Gooden for 2 years. They would have been better off trading him to a team for the rights of some euro player that may never even show up. Of course there is no reason to believe that anybody else except a team like Cleveland would take a shot on him. It is like Bill Simmons was saying, they spent 5 years dumping salaries and positioning themselves with draft picks and cap space and have wound up with a dysfunctional (and bad) team to show for it. There is just no evidence that Paxton has a workable plan for this team, just like Isiah.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

The trade was worth it simply for the opportunity to watch them suit up tonight with Kaniel Dickens, Billy Thomas, Dwayne Jones, Damon Jones, Eric Snow, Devin Brown, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and LeBron James.

You have to give them huge credit for that win. The Buzzards record was not that much below .500.......quite remarkable.

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

Perhaps Coach Pants should take over.

I'd send you to the d league.

[Mortimer]

^^^ This from the guy who asked God to send a lightning bolt out with his name on it.