Worse KY Derby winner...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Danzig

not sure what to make of him. the way he raced, and then how things have gone for him since.
is he a nutcase?

huh.......

he banged his head in the belmont...and valponi walked by the turds

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

huh.......

he banged his head in the belmont...and valponi walked by the turds

war emblem either won, or was out of the money completely. it was like he knew if he couldn't win, he wanted to take his toys and go home.
then his post-race career has been nothing but a mess.


it was funny, i had volponi in the espn pick six contest. only race i missed was the turf mile that year.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i can see arguments for go for gin.
but then, i think war emblem was pretty bad. if that horse didn't get things completely his way, he quit. first or nowhere.

Then explain his Preakness. He was not loose on the lead; under pressure the whole way.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Since 1984, who has been the worse Ky Derby winner? For me it is Giacomo with Grindstone coming in a close 2nd.

I don't think we saw nearly enough of Grindstone to say he was one of the worst... he never ran a poor race.

[3kings]

I'll have to go with Giacomo as the worst, he was stuck with Mike Smith. At least Sea Hero was able to entice Jerry Bailey to ride.

[philcski]

Giacomo in a landslide. Only Derby I've attended live. Been to the Oaks 6 times, that works better for me.

Was thinking about it Sunday @ CD, it's almost harder to believe Closing Argument was about 3 strides from the wire from winning it after pressing that ridiculous pace the whole way around. He ran some race that day, literally out of nowhere (and never again.)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Some of you guys really forget about how downright awful Sea Hero was when he wasn't on - which was most of the time.

And when he did jump up and run a good race - it wasn't very good. Both he and Giacomo had lifetime top Beyers of 109.

Giacomo's race in the Goodwood prior to his 4th by 4 to the big three in the BC Classic was a very sneaky good race. Lava Man beat him by only three lengths - despite taking advantage of a slow pace on a very inside-speed biased track. He ran a 104 Beyer with every possible thing against him that day...in a way a better race than his 4th in the Classic next out.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Some of you guys really forget about how downright awful Sea Hero was when he wasn't on - which was most of the time.

And when he did jump up and run a good race - it wasn't very good. Both he and Giacomo had lifetime top Beyers of 109.

Giacomo's race in the Goodwood prior to his 4th by 4 to the big three in the BC Classic was a very sneaky good race. Lava Man beat him by only three lengths - despite taking advantage of a slow pace on a very inside-speed biased track. He ran a 104 Beyer with every possible thing against him that day...in a way a better race than his 4th in the Classic next out.

Your exactly right. I couldn't believe how overrated he was. But after Giacomo, a new standard for incompetence was set.

Now if we went back 25 years to 1982, Gato Del Sol might've been the worst of all.

[HaloWishingwell]

Any votes for FUSAICHI OVERRATED,CHARISMATIC or MONARCHOS?

[RolloTomasi]

If his other accomplishments don't matter, than surely his other losses don't matter either. Its rather apparent from his record that Sea Hero was the type of horse that had to run to find his best form, something that was exploited masterfully by Mack Miller, given that aside from a maiden win (which took several starts) and an allowance tune-up at 4, his only other victories came in the important Champagne, Derby, and Travers. If you want to dock him for losing blatant prep races like the Bluegrass and Jim Dandy, then that just underlines one of racing's major problems nowadays: that trainers (and fans) somehow have come to expect that top horses have to win every start.

Not that his best efforts were necessarily killer, but Sea Hero won races when it most mattered, and the fact that he was able to produce top form and win 3 of his 6 most important tests (Champagne, BC Juvenile, Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Travers) by open lengths has to have come from something more than just mere coincidence. Certainly, these focused performances amid a bevy of failures in lesser races has to be superior to the consistent mediocrity that Giacomo displayed in his career.

But regardless, simply put, Sea Hero, speedfigure-wise, ran faster than Giacomo in their respective Derbies (105 BSF vs. 100 BSF).

And just for a little more pull in his favor, Sea Hero, in his best performance, won the '93 Travers over a deep field:

Kissin Kris- Belmont runner up, recent Haskell winner who later was 3rd in that year's BC Classic
Miner's Mark- Jim Dandy winner and subsequent winner of the Jockey Club Gold Cup
Cherokee Run- Preakness runner up, subsequent BC Sprint winner and champion
Devoted Brass- Swaps winner, later a winner in Saudi Arabia
Virginia Rapids- Peter Pan winner, subsequent Carter winner
Colonial Affair- Belmont winner, subsequent JCGC and Whitney winner

Giacomo, in his only subsequent win defeated Preachinatthebar and Papi Chullo.

Oh...and Rathor.

[PPerfectfan]

Originally Posted by philcski

Giacomo in a landslide. Only Derby I've attended live. Been to the Oaks 6 times, that works better for me.

Was thinking about it Sunday @ CD, it's almost harder to believe Closing Argument was about 3 strides from the wire from winning it after pressing that ridiculous pace the whole way around. He ran some race that day, literally out of nowhere (and never again.)

That freaking Giamaco cost me the tri AND super that day!!! I only had him in the bottom 3 spots. I loved, loved Closing Arguement. And told everyone that too. He had not run a bad race, on the board in all starts before the Derby.But honestly the only reason I had Dont Get Mad was because of B.Wayne Hughes being the owner and they said he was working great. trying to be honest.lol I also had $10across on C.A. My bestfriend who was just getting into betting was having a heartattack watching me have a heartattack as they turned for home and C.A was right there at 70/1. Freaking Giamaco, the nag.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by PPerfectfan

That freaking Giamaco cost me the tri AND super that day!!! I only had him in the bottom 3 spots. I loved, loved Closing Arguement. And told everyone that too. He had not run a bad race, on the board in all starts before the Derby.But honestly the only reason I had Dont Get Mad was because of B.Wayne Hughes being the owner and they said he was working great. trying to be honest.lol I also had $10across on C.A. My bestfriend who was just getting into betting was having a heartattack watching me have a heartattack as they turned for home and C.A was right there at 70/1. Freaking Giamaco, the nag.

I figured DGM for a clunk up 4th or 5th, he was sharp and fit the shape of the race- that's about the only thing I had right in that derby. Keyed Alex in exactas and tris but couldn't come up with Giacomo if I had the next day's newspaper. Hell, I didn't even think Closing Argument was an automatic toss.

If you guys can, watch the CD replay of the '05 Derby. About halfway down the stretch Krystbosch can't figure out who Closing Argument is, and you can hear him shuffle his race notes to find which one the 18 was. I'll give him a pass, I think he figured he'd have to call his name once and be done with him

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by 3kings

I'll have to go with Giacomo as the worst, he was stuck with Mike Smith. At least Sea Hero was able to entice Jerry Bailey to ride.

doesnt that move Giacomo up, that he won with one of the worst riders in the history of the game?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

doesnt that move Giacomo up, that he won with one of the worst riders in the history of the game?

I wouldn't exactly call your boy one of the worst riders in the history of the game - though - the sad version of him and the way he rides route races over the last few years should almost be enough for Giacomo to deserve and asterisk next to his form.

[Revidere]

It really seems that most of the hate for Giacomo was because he beat them. My luck notwithstanding, (I am proud to say that there was every indication that the race would fall apart) I thought if he ran his even race in the Derby he would win. His Breeders Cup Classic was excellent. Sorry. As for Mike Smith, before he nearly died at Saratoga, he was the man in the 90's.

Have a Thanksgiving!

[dylbert]

Giacomo is worst Derby winner ever... by open lengths, or by "a pole"! I don't anyone will recall Giacomo as some great force in history of thoroughbred ranks. Plodder, rather than Derby winner, is what I will remember him as.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dylbert

Giacomo is worst Derby winner ever... by open lengths, or by "a pole"! I don't anyone will recall Giacomo as some great force in history of thoroughbred ranks. Plodder, rather than Derby winner, is what I will remember him as.

I was looking at a broodmare today at the Keeneland sale. Liked her pedigree, thought she had pretty good conformation. May be in my price range. Sounds good until I saw she was in foal to Giacomo. I dont want to pay to raise one of those so I passed.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by dylbert

Giacomo is worst Derby winner ever... by open lengths

You obviously don't know about 1933 Kentucky Derby winner Brokers Tip.

His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1 ... and he is the only horse in history who's only career win came in the Derby.

He won the race in controvesial fashion...his jockey and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were fighting each other through the lane.

It's a story almost as remarkably absurd as Sir Barton....

A horse who entered the Kentucky Derby as a maiden, off of a 8 month layoff, and only running to serve the purpose as a pace setting rabbit for his stablemate. He runs off and wins by 5. Takes the Preakness next out, followed by the Withers, and than the Belmont.

From hopeless maiden rabbit at post time on May 10th - to the first horse to sweep the later to be named Triple Crown on June 11th.