Spill @ Hollywood

[The Bid]

I didnt even see the race but Im sure Jara flopping around on top like he usually does didnt help matters. If I racereplay Ill be jockey bashing the rest of the night. He probably had his horse off balance, all over the track, couldnt pick the horse up, Im getting mad just thinking about him.

On another jockey bashing note Rene Douglas aboard Prom Shoes today was pretty brutal. He ducked to the rail and followed the only horse in the race that figured to back up right into his face. Nice move RD.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

the thing is it wasn't a breakdown, the horse clipped heels and went down only because of the quick way that Gomez came over. to my eye it was his agressive riding that triggered it. if you interfere with others i don't think it's supposed to matter one bit if the horse is much the best. obviously the stewards saw it differently but I think scuds point is to raise the question whether they would have made the same call if it wasn't Gomez. Lets say it was Kyla Stra and it was Gomez who went down. would they have still let the finish order stand? I think its highly unlikely. it does seem to matter who the characters are.

Maybe I'm not as keen to the dynamics of the CA jockey colony as some here, but I think it's very difficult and highly speculative to say that without some proof or examples of similar situations that resulted in different rulings by the stewards. If Jara was on the winner and Gomez was on the horse that went down and the ruling went for Gomez, I would say that it was an over-call in that case rather than an under-call in the actual situation we're discussing. . .

[hockey2315]

Not to put you on the spot, but if you have any insight into this it would be greatly appreciated. . .

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I have looked at this thing very slowly.I suggest you watch it as slowly as possible,because it becomes very obvious that these two horses were not fighting for a spot.Trust me,go back and watch it as slowly as possible,and you will see a pathetic no call.If you watch it anywhere near real time you will miss it.Go slow and you will see Gomez is stuck behind the horse (jock green silks.Jara's horse is right beside this horse with green silks.Another horse has the inner path blocked.Gomez is looking for a way out.This is at 54 seconds in.BTW,THIS STOPPER in green is a huge problem for all these horses.They are going fast,and he is really pedestrian.This is why such a quick decision was made by GOGO.He had to get out from behind the horse in green.Jara's horse is running o.k. ,BUT JARA'S HORSE,AND THE ONes outside of him have all got to go a lil wide out of the turn to avoid the horse in green(who is in the way.)Jara's horse is hit on the back right quarter by a horse outside of him.When this happens,you will see his white blinks pulled back to the center of the track.Jara is putting him back in the lane he went a lil wide from.At this point,he is dead center in his lane(but moving inward due to being hit in the back right.).)At this exact point(Gomez' horse moves out on him.)It seems that they make contact,or Jara has to pull him violently outside.This is in no way a an overreaction.Either he is being pushed outside by Garret's horse,or Jara is having to pull his head violently outside.This horse then crashes into a horse outside of him.There are 3 hard changes of direction that he makes.The horse simply gets pushed back n' forth in a very small amount of time.Gomez tried to use a seam that opened and closed very quickly.When he came over,the seam had closed,and Jara's horse had nothing to do,but shoot outside into the other horse.This was not an open lane.There is a horse there and it is forced into other horses.This all took place it a very short period of time,but one thing that's obvious is that this was a taken lane when Garret moves into it.He moved into it to it because he was gunna clip heels with the slow horse in green.BECAUSE OF THE SLOW HORSE IN GREEN,2 horses needed the same lane,but Jara's horse is there 1st,and Gomez moves into it(causing a violent change of direction for Jara's horse.)The lane opened and closed quickly.Gomez hoped it would be more than that,but it just wasn't.The biggest problem was Gomez moving into a lane that had openned and closed(very quickly.) This was not an open lane.There is a horse there.This is plain as day.Go slow as possible.There is a horse there,and that horse has to move to avoid BEING CRUSHED BY GARRET'S HORSE.SO,THAT'S WHY THE VIOLENT MOVE OUTSIDE ,AND THE ACCIDENT.Oh,I know for sure Garret is moving into a taken lane.Anybody(except the stewards) can see this if they slow it down enough.This is one replay head on that has to be played very slowly.A lot going on in short time.

[MaTH716]

I guess you can look at 2 ways. Because there was a spill, it turned out to be a reckless move. If there was no spill, it would have just been called a good agresive ride by Go-Go who got the best horse through and brought him home. I guess that there is a very fine line betwen agressive and reckless. My beef is more with the stewards. How can the justify leaving a horse/jockey up that contributed to a two horse spill?

[hockey2315]

Scuds-

How would you address the fact that Jara's horse was running so erratically?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Scuds-

How would you address the fact that Jara's horse was running so erratically?

THE HORSES outside of him tried to keep him from getting out.So,he was forced through a small space(between them and the slow horse in green.)All the horses outside of the green horse(slow horse )had to go wide to avoid him(coming out of the turn.)So,this horse is being forced to go through a small space while going wide.When they come into the top stretch,Jara's horse goes a lil wide,and the horse outside of him (at the same time) comes in.The have contact on Jara's horse(back right.)Of course Jara gets his lead going the opposite way(back into his lane.)So,when he does that,the lane had openned and closed(very quickly.) The problem is that Gomez was desperate to avoid the slow horse in Green.He decided to try for the seam that closed on him.The fact is that he came out of his lane,and hit a horse,or caused it to be forced outside violently.Jara's horse never took Gomez' lane.Not once.I know Gomez was wrong for taking that lane.It wasn't there,It closed.He is wrong to be there.The fact is that race riding on the turn,and a very slow obstacle horse, caused big problems.Gomez assumed too much. The horse outside him moved out a lil,and then came back into it's lane(before Gomez had time to go through the seam.)He tried it anyways.Caused accident.No matter how you dice it up,there is a horse in the lane,and he moved into it.It's on tape.He moves into this horse.They are wrong to ignore that.Now anybody can move into any small seem and knock horses over.That's really the way this is.They have nothing to say,because they allowed Gomez to foul a horse to take it's lane.It really is about this rider.They think so much of him that they ignore what is in front of them.He pushed Jara out of the way(jara never bothered him.)It's all about the leading rider(this is actually not unusual.)Like I said,I knew they wouldn't take this man down.

[hockey2315]

How can a horse establish a lane when he's veering in and out in the stretch? It's like in football- if a player's juggling the ball and then steps out of bounds, he didn't have possession. . .

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

How can a horse establish a lane when he's veering in and out in the stretch? It's like in football- if a player's juggling the ball and then steps out of bounds, he didn't have possession. . .

Just exactly how many times must you be told that Gomez took his horse into another horse's path?I think a horse clipped his back legs,and then he gets away from that,and Gomez comes right in front of him and the horse gets his front heels clipped by the back legs of Gomez horse.That's why the horse basically falls down after Gomez does that.This protected rider came over on a horse who I think already had his back legs cut up.You know,I can tell you all night that other riders would get taken down for what Gomez did,but you're gunna believe wht you want.That horse was not out of control when Gomez came over and did that.That hole closed.Pretty fkn obvious it closed.When other riders try to go through holes that aren't open,then they get taken down.This guy comes over and takes a horse's path(and I think clips heels with him,) and all the sudden it is overlooked.Why do you think the horse crashed into the other horse,and fell? To me it's clipped hills .He didn't just cut him off.Could have killed horses and jocks,and you wan't him to be able to do it again? Prick,go back and look at the way this horse goes down after Gomez comes over.That's clipped heels.Now you're in favor of allowing a horse to come over and clip heels,and get away with it.Believe me,this is about the horse being an unpopular horse,(and jock) and the winner being ridden by the leading jock in the nation.I couldn't tell ya the last time he got taken down out here.Really,I only see him win them.This is a foul.He came out took a horse's lane,and clipped heels,and caused an accident.God forbide he be punished(LIKE ANY OTHER JOCK WOULD BE.)

[SCUDSBROTHER]

USELESS....You can't admit a foul,and then YOU try to make excuses for committing one.You came over.It ain't 50/50..You came out.Took an occupied lane.Clipped heels,and caused an accident....No punishment for royalty.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Just exactly how many times must you be told that Gomez took his horse into another horse's path?I think a horse clipped his back legs,and then he gets away from that,and Gomez comes right in front of him and the horse gets his front heels clipped by the back legs of Gomez horse.That's why the horse basically falls down after Gomez does that.This protected rider came over on a horse who I think already had his back legs cut up.You know,I can tell you all night that other riders would get taken down for what Gomez did,but you're gunna believe wht you want.That horse was not out of control when Gomez came over and did that.That hole closed.Pretty fkn obvious it closed.When other riders try to go through holes that aren't open,then they get taken down.This guy comes over and takes a horse's path(and I think clips heels with him,) and all the sudden it is overlooked.Why do you think the horse crashed into the other horse,and fell? To me it's clipped hills .He didn't just cut him off.Could have killed horses and jocks,and you wan't him to be able to do it again? Prick,go back and look at the way this horse goes down after Gomez comes over.That's clipped heels.Now you're in favor of allowing a horse to come over and clip heels,and get away with it.Believe me,this is about the horse being an unpopular horse,(and jock) and the winner being ridden by the leading jock in the nation.I couldn't tell ya the last time he got taken down out here.Really,I only see him win them.This is a foul.He came out took a horse's lane,and clipped heels,and caused an accident.God forbide he be punished(LIKE ANY OTHER JOCK WOULD BE.)

Scuds-

Calm down. . . I think you're having a difficult time understanding what I'm saying. . . I'll go real slow for you. . .

ok. . .

here goes. . .

the horse hadn't established a lane because it wasn't running straight. . .

and i'm not arguing over the clipped heels thing. . . that's not the point

your arguments have been incoherent and this is obviously not getting anywhere because you have difficulty separating the relevant parts of the incident from the irrelevant parts. . . so let's just agree to disagree. . .

maybe you should go to stewards school. . . i'm sure they have a remedial class. . .

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Just exactly how many times must you be told that Gomez took his horse into another horse's path?I think a horse clipped his back legs,and then he gets away from that,and Gomez comes right in front of him and the horse gets his front heels clipped by the back legs of Gomez horse.That's why the horse basically falls down after Gomez does that.This protected rider came over on a horse who I think already had his back legs cut up.You know,I can tell you all night that other riders would get taken down for what Gomez did,but you're gunna believe wht you want.That horse was not out of control when Gomez came over and did that.That hole closed.Pretty fkn obvious it closed.When other riders try to go through holes that aren't open,then they get taken down.This guy comes over and takes a horse's path(and I think clips heels with him,) and all the sudden it is overlooked.Why do you think the horse crashed into the other horse,and fell? To me it's clipped hills .He didn't just cut him off.Could have killed horses and jocks,and you wan't him to be able to do it again? Prick,go back and look at the way this horse goes down after Gomez comes over.That's clipped heels.Now you're in favor of allowing a horse to come over and clip heels,and get away with it.Believe me,this is about the horse being an unpopular horse,(and jock) and the winner being ridden by the leading jock in the nation.I couldn't tell ya the last time he got taken down out here.Really,I only see him win them.This is a foul.He came out took a horse's lane,and clipped heels,and caused an accident.God forbide he be punished(LIKE ANY OTHER JOCK WOULD BE.)

I would tend to agree with you that the Gomez horse probably should have come down. However, you have some of the facts wrong. Jara's horse did not clip heels with Gomez' horse. Jara's horse clipped heels with the #6 horse Dr Zaentz. It was the Gomez horse that caused the incident. He came out into Jara's path and caused the Jara horse to clip heels with Dr Zaentz.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Scuds-

Calm down. . . I think you're having a difficult time understanding what I'm saying. . . I'll go real slow for you. . .

ok. . .

here goes. . .

the horse hadn't established a lane because it wasn't running straight. . .

and i'm not arguing over the clipped heels thing. . . that's not the point

your arguments have been incoherent and this is obviously not getting anywhere because you have difficulty separating the relevant parts of the incident from the irrelevant parts. . . so let's just agree to disagree. . .

maybe you should go to stewards school. . . i'm sure they have a remedial class. . .

I can't help somebody that wants to ignore a foul.I've given you a foul,and you've made an excuse for why the foul took place.When Gomez comes over ,there is a horse there.There would not have been the bad fall if Gomez hadn't come over.You're gunna attack the other horse for being where Gomez wanted to be.That's simply excuse making.The horse openned a hole(that was barely big enough) for an instant,but came right back in an closed the hole.This is not an open hole for Garrett to come over.You can be mad that it wasn't,but it wasn't.They are wrong for letting him come over on the horse.Like I said,this is going to change the way stewards have to do things now.They have chosen to make an exception,and allowed a rider to foul.Believe me they are gunna have this incident brought up all year,because they overlooked a guy taking a path away.He didn't think the horse was gunna be there.That's his thinking.Reality didn't match his thinking (this time.)The whole world doesn't have to do what Garrett thinks they should be doing.He shot to his right for a very short time,and got pulled back in.By then Garrett had decided he wanted his spot.So he fouls him.Horse beat Garrett to the spot.It happens.I am not gunna blame Garrett for doing something horrible,but this is a foul.I am putting blame on the stewards for having multiple outcomes for the same crime.There is no doubt in most players mind that their jock would have come down.It's special treatment for one guy that most people like.Simple as that.He doesn't lose many inquiries out here.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I would tend to agree with you that the Gomez horse probably should have come down. However, you have some of the facts wrong. Jara's horse did not clip heels with Gomez' horse. Jara's horse clipped heels with the #6 horse Dr Zaentz. It was the Gomez horse that caused the incident. He came out into Jara's path and caused the Jara horse to clip heels with Dr Zaentz.

Hard to tell,but I think Jara's horse does take contact from Gomez horse.You would have to go very slow to see it,but his front legs seem to get caught with the winners back legs. There is a lot going on,but it was critical for Gomez to stay out of that lane.Jara's horse had already taken some kind of contact on his back right.That was the wrong time to force another quick change of direction on him.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Scuds-

Calm down. . . I think you're having a difficult time understanding what I'm saying. . . I'll go real slow for you. . .

ok. . .

here goes. . .

the horse hadn't established a lane because it wasn't running straight. . .

and i'm not arguing over the clipped heels thing. . . that's not the point

your arguments have been incoherent and this is obviously not getting anywhere because you have difficulty separating the relevant parts of the incident from the irrelevant parts. . . so let's just agree to disagree. . .

maybe you should go to stewards school. . . i'm sure they have a remedial class. . .

The relevant part is that the lane was taken.That's pretty obvious that it wasn't open when he decided to move into it.99% of the time they are not gunna let a jock come into a lane when he isn't clear.This is the relevant part.You've decided to dip into the irrelevant stuff like whether he thought a horse would be there,or should be there.He thought he wouldn't be in the lane.It was a guess.It was a wrong guess.There was a horse there when he came over.Now,less professional riders are gunna start being more aggresive in their lane changes,and the stewards are going to regret this.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Hard to tell,but I think Jara's horse does take contact from Gomez horse.You would have to go very slow to see it,but his front legs seem to get caught with the winners back legs. There is a lot going on,but it was critical for Gomez to stay out of that lane.Jara's horse had already taken some kind of contact on his back right.That was the wrong time to force another quick change of direction on him.

You're not denying that the Jara horse clipped heels with Dr Zaentz, are you? That's not even debatable.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You're not denying that the Jara horse clipped heels with Dr Zaentz, are you? That's not even debatable.

Yes,Dr. Zaenth,and Jara's horse clipped hills.I just don't know if there was other contact.It's hard to tell how much contact took place between Jara's horse and the winner.I think Jara's horse got cut on the front left( by the back right hoof of the winner.) Hard to tell how much contact took place between Jara's horse,and the 5 horse(Dewey's whateva.) Blanc(on the 6)was not giving much room to the two horses inside of him.So,when Jara's horse went just a bit wide in top stretch,you will see Jara have to pull him back quickly into his lane.This is why Garret's assumption(that Jara was moving outside)was incorrect.He had no room outside.He had to quickly pull him back into his lane.When he did that,he got hit by THE WINNER TRYING TO TAKE A LANE THAT HAD ONLY OPENED FOR like half a second.It had quickly closed.Garrett told the stewards that Jara chose to go outside,and so he took his lane.Problem is he isn't outside when he comes over.He is in the same lane he was in when they entered the stretch.He simply isn't clear when he comes over.Granted,it all took place very quickly,and decisions had to be made very quickly.A foul did take place though,and without that foul,the Jara horse wouldn't have shot across to the back of Dr. Zaenth,and clipped hills.I have no idea why they let Gomez come over when not clear.I've never seen them ignore what he did there.He simply guessed at something,and was wrong.Jara's horse is dead center in his lane when Garrett comes over.He didn't think he was gunna be there,but he was wrong(cuz he guessed.) Then he blamed Jara for going outside.I mean the facts are that the horse came right back into his lane,and then was bothered big time by THE WINNER.THE SEEM CLOSED.LIKE 99% OF THE TIME THIS WOULD BE A D.Q. When you take a seem that closed? You usually get taken down....wasn't clear when moved over.Jara's horse beat Garret's horse to the spot Garrett had decided to take.There is zero way for Jara to know Gomez was coming over.