9/30: JCGC; Vos; Beldame; JHTC

[brianwspencer]

He's just not what he used to be.

And what he used to be was good enough to score wins against competition that was more often than not less than stellar for the class level.

He's a fine racehorse and has certainly given good accounts of himself for most of his career, but I'm hard pressed off the top of my head to think of a time when he ran into a top-level racehorse without wilting.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

My man, you just went with my all-time least favorite defense for a horse, the 'I'd love to own one like him' card.

I think I've had that one thrown at me everytime I've gone on one of my crusades against wildly overrated horses.

always the go-to when anyone mentioned perfect drift in anything other than a favorable way.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's not " hating "....it's reality. His last race was decidely mediocre and none of his efforts this year have been particularly good. For him to be odds-on, given his 2007 form, in a supposed big race like this is a complete condemnation of the race.

You're a fan of his, that's great, and obviously we all wished we owned him, but the truth speaks for itself.

That last race is a complete tossout. How do you all of a sudden try to rate a horse 9-10 lengths off the lead, in a Grade 1 race, when his success from stalking just off the pacesitter speaks for itself. I still disagree with the posted fractions of that race as well. No way, IMO, they went that fast for the first 6 panels.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Danzig

always the go-to when anyone mentioned perfect drift in anything other than a favorable way.

also known as getting gritsed.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

My man, you just went with my all-time least favorite defense for a horse, the 'I'd love to own one like him' card.

I think I've had that one thrown at me everytime I've gone on one of my crusades against wildly overrated horses.

Im reaching Drugs, I know...throw me a bone here, will ya?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

King Glorious would like to know how you can say this without the PP's.

That made me laugh. It's only ridiculous if I form a definitive opinion before the draw but it's ok if the Master does it.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by GPK

Im reaching Drugs, I know...throw me a bone here, will ya?

You have been REACHING since this horse was 2

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That made me laugh. It's only ridiculous if I form a definitive opinion before the draw but it's ok if the Master does it.

At least you understand who's opinions are more qualified around here. That's a start.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

At least you understand who's opinions are more qualified around here. That's a start.

I laughed

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by GPK

That last race is a complete tossout. How do you all of a sudden try to rate a horse 9-10 lengths off the lead, in a Grade 1 race, when his success from stalking just off the pacesitter speaks for itself. I still disagree with the posted fractions of that race as well. No way, IMO, they went that fast for the first 6 panels.

Huh? He got a perfect trip and got swallowed up.

What are you saying....unless he gets the most perfect trips possible he's barely competitive?

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Scav

You have been REACHING since this horse was 2

Come back when you know sh*t about horse racing....

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Huh? He got a perfect trip and got swallowed up.

What are you saying....unless he gets the most perfect trips possible he's barely competitive?

Taking a horse out of his preferred, and highly succesful, running style qualifies as a perfect trip?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

At least you understand who's opinions are more qualified around here. That's a start.

I've always known that it was your world and we are just trying to live in it. But don't u at least find it a bit hypocritical on your part to pick at me for doing it and then u come right back and do the same thing?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've always known that it was your world and we are just trying to live in it. But don't u at least find it a bit hypocritical on your part to pick at me for doing it and then u come right back and do the same thing?

Only if you take it out of context.

You acted as though you handicapped the race and couldn't make a case for a mid-priced horse. I am suggesting that I am looking forward to betting against an odds-on favorite who has dressed up form. Two very different scenerios.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think English Channel's last race will look much better on sheet-figures than it will look any other way.

He gave the winner six pounds at 12 furlongs - which I believe is like 2.9 lengths in weight on the sheets. And the winner, got a great ground saving ride from Calvin Borel, while EC was a little bit wide as I recall.

I'm positive EC came away with the better figure - even though he was beaten by 3 lengths...which is a large margin of victory in a turf race.

I don't think EC is as good as he once was either - but he was beat by a dream-trip winner as I remember, and weight shifts like that can mean a little something in turf marathons. Look at how 3yo's tend to dominate olders in the Arc.

Even if you excuse the loss in the Sword Dancer - his win in the UN came with a dream trip, and his Manhatten effort was blah.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by GPK

Taking a horse out of his preferred, and highly succesful, running style qualifies as a perfect trip?

Stalking slow paces is hardly a better trip than being slightly farther back against impossibly fast paces. All the pace did in the Sword Dancer was give the deeper closers a fairer chance than they usually have against English Channel. It didn't hurt him....it just helped another. He still ran his usual mediocre race.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Only if you take it out of context.

You acted as though you handicapped the race and couldn't make a case for a mid-priced horse. I am suggesting that I am looking forward to betting against an odds-on favorite who has dressed up form. Two very different scenerios.

How did I act as if anything? The odds of the horses in the races played no factor in what I said. And u trying to make it seem like u were talking only about betting against her is very weak. U were very clear in your analysis, saying she was hopeless here. The scenarios are the same. U know Ginger Punch and u know what's likely to be in the race against her and u don't like her chances. Same with me and Fabulous Strike in the Vosburgh.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Stalking slow paces is hardly a better trip than being slightly farther back against impossibly fast paces. All the pace did in the Sword Dancer was give the deeper closers a fairer chance than they usually have against English Channel. It didn't hurt him....it just helped another. He still ran his usual mediocre race.

again...I have a hard time believing the posted fractions in the Sword Dancer are correct.

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by GPK

All the hating on EC.

Id love to own a horse that "isn't much" and has earned the $$ he has.

Hes not a Euro quality turf horse by anymeans...but his record here in America speaks for itself.

hey its not hating . just like you told me with drift-it is what is. just not the same horse he was a year or 2 ago.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Only if you take it out of context.

You acted as though you handicapped the race and couldn't make a case for a mid-priced horse. I am suggesting that I am looking forward to betting against an odds-on favorite who has dressed up form. Two very different scenerios.

Is this taking into consideration just how bad the Distaff division is? Possibles for the race are; Balance, Indian Vale, Miss Shop, Mo Cuishle, and Unbridled Belle.