Calvin's ride

[sumitas]

We saw a rarity today in the stretch out of Curlin. The lightning fast SS blew by him and Curlin then looked up to his left right at SS as he just put it into an even higher gear and went and got his adversary. ..awsome...and Stevens thinks Curlin can improve some more to...scary.

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

It sure seemed to me that he was acting "sure of himself" on NBC before the race.

Did he pass Curlin and say, "game over" and then look back to see how bad he was beating the competition to only let up on Street Sense enough to get beat?

After all, on Friday Calvin was "confident".

You sound like someone who lost a bet and not watched the racE. SS didnt lose the race Curlin won it.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by jpops757

You sound like someone who lost a bet and not watched the racE. SS didnt lose the race Curlin won it.

I agree, two excellent rides and two superior horses battled to the wire...no blame here just a great horse race!

[PPerfectfan]

Calvin rode a good race, the fact is Street hung. That is the cold hard facts. Maybe blinkers will help?? maybe who knows. I would much rather have a jock that thought we could win, than one that thinks we cant. He didnt give a ride that cost his horse the race,,,,the horse cost them the race. period end of story. I think he was smart to make the first move and try to get far enough out there, if he knows the horse hangs. No arrogance, no mistakes.

[Travis Stone]

He timed his ride perfect. He made the lead at the right time and was a winner. But Street Sense, not Calvin's whip, his ride, his pumping, his chirping - but Street Sense - pulled off the gas a bit while Curlin dug back in. The right horse won this race, fair and square.

[sumitas]

It was shocking how quickly Curlin floored it after being passed by SS. I think both Borel and SS were shocked Curlin came on like he did. Hat's off to both and the best won today.

[outofthebox]

Im tired of hearing the work "hang" in SS performance. He ran fantastic. Hanging in my opinion is coming up to a horse and either laying on him or just not wanting to go by. Borel said he felt SS idle just a bit in deep stretch, but only he can verify that. I thought he ran straight and strong to the wire.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Im tired of hearing the work "hang" in SS performance. He ran fantastic. Hanging in my opinion is coming up to a horse and either laying on him or just not wanting to go by. Borel said he felt SS idle just a bit in deep stretch, but only he can verify that. I thought he ran straight and strong to the wire.

Thank you, I have always felt the same thing and have said so on various threads. To me people use this term "hang" sometimes incorrectly and it makes me cringe.

I always thought like you do that hangers were horses that just don't have the will to go by, intead they wait, or "hang" around.
Street Sense ran like a monster, and so did Curlin.

[SundayStar]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Im tired of hearing the work "hang" in SS performance. He ran fantastic. Hanging in my opinion is coming up to a horse and either laying on him or just not wanting to go by. Borel said he felt SS idle just a bit in deep stretch, but only he can verify that. I thought he ran straight and strong to the wire.

i agree. i've watched the stretch run several times and i never saw even a hint of street sense gawking at the crowd or pulling up. he looked determined and looked to be giving full effort the for the entire stretch.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I would say the horse ran about as good as he possibly could in defeat, so his confidence was pretty dead on. Give me a confident rider any day over a non confident one. He rode another good race and his ride should in no way be criticized.

Agreed, this race was one for the ages!

[mclem10011]

Was another brilliant one, watching it i thought perhaps he waited a bit too long to move, but that wasn't the case. He made the lead, and even opened up a few lengths, it was impressive as hell. However, I was absolutely stunned when he looked back! To me that may have cost him that nose on the wire. I'm not a jockey, nor have i ever been on the back of a horse, much less in a race. But, goggles or know goggles, couldn't he feel the presence, or hear that Curlin was coming back at him? Help me out guys, am i missing something here? Or could it be, that Borel and Natger in the box with his "we got it" comment, following SS takin the lead, both thought they were home free? Bottom line, as brillian as the ride was, i feel Borel made a mistake that possibly cost him the 2nd leg of the triple crown! The heart that this horse showed, in making another terrific run was amazing. Borel making the mistake of lookin back, instead of riding HIS HORSE through the wire, was shocking to me.

[ninetoone]

I haven't seen or can't imagine any good reason to look back in that scenario, as opposed to not doing it. Whether or not it cost him those few inches, I guess noone will ever know for sure. My guess is that if he had it to do over again, he wouldn't look back. It was a great race by both though...my dumb *ss was on CQ, so I could enjoy the battle without any dreams of cashing a ticket on the winner.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by mclem10011

Was another brilliant one, watching it i thought perhaps he waited a bit too long to move, but that wasn't the case. He made the lead, and even opened up a few lengths, it was impressive as hell. However, I was absolutely stunned when he looked back! To me that may have cost him that nose on the wire. I'm not a jockey, nor have i ever been on the back of a horse, much less in a race. But, goggles or know goggles, couldn't he feel the presence, or hear that Curlin was coming back at him? Help me out guys, am i missing something here? Or could it be, that Borel and Natger in the box with his "we got it" comment, following SS takin the lead, both thought they were home free? Bottom line, as brillian as the ride was, i feel Borel made a mistake that possibly cost him the 2nd leg of the triple crown! The heart that this horse showed, in making another terrific run was amazing. Borel making the mistake of lookin back, instead of riding HIS HORSE through the wire, was shocking to me.

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

Thanks Somerfrost.
That peek didn't cost the horse a bit.
There's no blame in this one.
Both good horses, good rides.
Some people want to make more out of something than needs to be.
Look at the thread about the 3yo crop. Hmmm. Seems that some don't know a danged thing about cycles, that some peak at different times.
Always the comparisons, always the questions, always the blame.
Let's just say we saw a race worth remembering.
I'm also happy for Matz in his win in the Barbaro, and for the Ramsey's, for their win on the undercard also.
Many more races ahead.
Hope the "fans" don't try to over think it all. It's horse racing, afterall.

[ninetoone]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

When you lose by the length of the stretch, the jockey's decision making and the intricacies of the ride are a moot point. It's different when it's a head bob. Despite what some people think, it's not all horse. The jockeys decisions can win or lose a race, it's a fact. I don't think people are out to "blame" anyone per se...I think it's just natural curiousity after such a compelling race, and it's human nature to monday morning QB. I was on CQ, so I consider myself neutral, but as I said, if I had been on Street Sense, I'd certainly rather not have CB looking back...what about you?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by ninetoone

When you lose by the length of the stretch, the jockey's decision making and the intricacies of the ride are a moot point. It's different when it's a head bob. Despite what some people think, it's not all horse. The jockeys decisions can win or lose a race, it's a fact. I don't think people are out to "blame" anyone per se...I think it's just natural curiousity after such a compelling race, and it's human nature to monday morning QB. I was on CQ, so I consider myself neutral, but as I said, if I had been on Street Sense, I'd certainly rather not have CB looking back...what about you?

Were you really on CQ?
If so, ok. You did the best with what you had.
Do you really think that peek cost SS and CB the race?
I don't.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by ninetoone

When you lose by the length of the stretch, the jockey's decision making and the intricacies of the ride are a moot point. It's different when it's a head bob. Despite what some people think, it's not all horse. The jockeys decisions can win or lose a race, it's a fact. I don't think people are out to "blame" anyone per se...I think it's just natural curiousity after such a compelling race, and it's human nature to monday morning QB. I was on CQ, so I consider myself neutral, but as I said, if I had been on Street Sense, I'd certainly rather not have CB looking back...what about you?

I would rather not either, but not because it might cost me in a close finish, I'd be afraid (with my luck) the jock would fall off. Certainly in a perfect world, you want the jock to be all business...even after the finish line (I've seen horses take a bad step after a race...I'd want my jock paying attention until the dismount. Most of a jock's work is finished by the stretch, particularly if his horse is in front...I don't care how strong a jock is, the horse runs the race...a jock can encourage but the horse runs. Even the use of the whip is controversial, England has had big debates whether a whip should be allowed at all and a lot of data has been collected that seems to support the fact that whipping a horse seldom makes it run faster. If Calvin pulled back on the reigns or stood up (ala The Shoe and Kent D) you'd have a story but turning his head? Maybe if you collect wind tunnel data, you could prove that wind resistence slowed the horse to some minute extent but otherwise, I see no evidence to support a claim that merely turning his head slowed the horse.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

....England has had big debates whether a whip should be allowed at all and a lot of data has been collected that seems to support the fact that whipping a horse seldom makes it run faster. If Calvin pulled back on the reigns or stood up (ala The Shoe and Kent D) you'd have a story but turning his head? Maybe if you collect wind tunnel data, .

standing straight up in the reins ala the 1957 derby) should not impact the horses momentum all things being equal (It would be like jumping straight up on a train). If you watch the video of Gallant Man the Shoe's move does not appear to change his stride or speed at all. And why should it? Looks bad but not by the laws of physics...

Turning in the saddle should do something to the horses momentum both sideways and backwards. DIdnt the last race, Borel turned back and SS switched leads?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

It was a great race, so quite naturally people on a horse racing forum may want to comb over every aspect of the race and debate it. Where is it written that we can only talk about things that effect the outcome?

Weren't you the one defending a thread about the possibility of contact between Street Sense and Hard Spun in the derby? In fact I think you started that thread and you said it was interesting even though you admitted that it had no effect on the outcome.

This time the outcome was very close so I feel there does exist some possibility that the look-back may have been costly. Doesn't mean I'm blaming anyone and it doesn't mean that I didn't thoroughly enjoy the race.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It was a great race, so quite naturally people on a horse racing forum may want to comb over every aspect of the race and debate it. Where is it written that we can only talk about things that effect the outcome?

Weren't you the one defending a thread about the possibility of contact between Street Sense and Hard Spun in the derby? In fact I think you started that thread and you said it was interesting even though you admitted that it had no effect on the outcome.

This time the outcome was very close so I feel there does exist some possibility that the look-back may have been costly. Doesn't mean I'm blaming anyone and it doesn't mean that I didn't thoroughly enjoy the race.

And I'm not saying YOU did/do...by posting, I am giving my opinion! It always tickles me, people accuse me of attacking others for their opinions when all I'm doing is giving MY opinion...so, in fact, they are doing what they accuse me of doing! IN MY OPINION, this is a meaningless thread because Calvin did nothing to effect the race. When I posted the story about possible contact in the Derby, I stated from the beginning that I didn't think it was meaningful just interesting...this thread may be interesting but imo not meaningful either! It should be noted that yesterday during the ESPN/NBC coverage, the issue of contact was brought up several times and Pino was interviewed about it...at one point, he indicated that a foul claim WAS considered but he thought his horse just took a bad step. I still don't think the incident was meaningful but the networks apparently did!