15 Reasons why AP can't win The Crown

[Dunbar]

Sheesh, there are apparently just two possibilities. (1) AP can't possibly win, or (2) he's a lock.

The reality is that of course AP can win the TC. The only reasonable question is what are his chances. 25%? 50%? 67%? I haven't capped it yet, but I doubt the odds should be outside that range.

Here's a question for freddymo: If AP had run exactly the same races with exactly the same results, but had not won the 2-yr-old Championship, would you then think he is less likely to win the TC? In fact, AP only beat Texas Red 126-111 in the Eclipse voting. If Texas Red had been voted 2-yr-old Champion, would that mean AP now has less chance to win the TC?

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Sheesh, there are apparently just two possibilities. (1) AP can't possibly win, or (2) he's a lock.

The reality is that of course AP can win the TC. The only reasonable question is what are his chances. 25%? 50%? 67%? I haven't capped it yet, but I doubt the odds should be outside that range.

Here's a question for freddymo: If AP had run exactly the same races with exactly the same results, but had not won the 2-yr-old Championship, would you then think he is less likely to win the TC? In fact, AP only beat Texas Red 126-111 in the Eclipse voting. If Texas Red had been voted 2-yr-old Champion, would that mean AP now has less chance to win the TC?

lol funny stuff

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Save Spectacular Bid were any 2 year old champs? Now look at the 7 TC winners and tell me how many of them indeed were 2 year old champs?

Freddy, there are 11 Triple Crown winners.

6 of those were 2yo champions in one form or another. The other 5 were not, and would not have been even if there were formal Eclipse Awards at the time.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Look at the Bids pp's . If he couldn't , how can this hoss?
No way he wins 4 grade I races in 8weeks. The bottom that is so necesssy to win the first 2 jewels is a hinderance in the Belmont . Fresher legs rule the day. He will be dogged like he hasn't been thus far and in the end will succumb to the pressure and the distance will get to him at the 3/16 pole . He will then falter and be off the board. One of those cases where I'll get huge against a hoss that I'll be rooting for. If he wins , he is quite deserving. But it's not gonna happen.

You're gonna compare a race where the jock was hopped up on a lot of toot to this? And there's always the story of the safety pin....

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Sheesh, there are apparently just two possibilities. (1) AP can't possibly win, or (2) he's a lock.

I posted about this the other day to some degree...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=56

It's impossible to have a logical, honest conversation about horses like this with some folks. Their percentages are 100% winner and there is no way it's anything but that. Despite the fact, ya know, it's horse racing.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by asudevil

You're gonna compare a race where the jock was hopped up on a lot of toot to this? And there's always the story of the safety pin....

Go read Bids pp's . And in 79 when toot was real everybody was hopped up. The point is that better hosses than AP have failed.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

2) To discount brilliance at 2 that affords a championship and carry's into the 3 year old year suggests a lack of emphasis on how infrequent it happens. Uncle Mo is a perfect example as good/fast a baby as I have ever seen just never made it to TC.. Lesson when it happens it means a lot

Fred, let's look at dual classic winners:

1963: Chateaugay- won 2 of 5 starts at 2; lost Preakness
1964: Northern Dancer- champion 2yo in Canada (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1966: Kauai King- won 1 of 4 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1967: Damascus- won 3 of 4 starts at 2 including Remsen; lost Derby
1968: Forward Pass- stakes winner in 2 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1969: Majestic Prince- winner of both starts at 2; lost Belmont
1971: Canonero II- won 1 of 3 starts at 2 (2 in NA); lost Belmont
1972: Riva Ridge- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Preakness
1974: Little Current- maiden in 4 starts at 2; lost Derby
1976: Bold Forbes- won 7 of 8 starts including stakes; lost Preakness
1979: Spectacular Bid- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1981: Pleasant Colony- won 2 of 5 starts including Remsen; lost Belmont
1984: Swale- won 5 of 7 (2nd in vote for champion); lost Preakness
1987: Alysheba- won 1 of 7 starts, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Belmont
1988: Risen Star- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Derby
1989: Sunday Silence- won 1 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
1991: Hansel- won 3 of 5, stakes winner; lost Derby
1993: Tabasco Cat- won 3 of 6, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Derby
1995: Thunder Gulch- won 2 of 6 including Remsen; lost Preakness
1997: Silver Charm- won 2 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
1998: Real Quiet- won 2 of 9 starts, including G1; lost Belmont
1999: Charismatic- won 1 of 7 starts; lost Belmont
2002: War Emblem- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
2003: Funny Cide- won 3 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
2004: Smarty Jones- won 2 of 2 including stakes; lost Belmont
2006: Afleet Alex- won 4 of 6, G1, 2nd in Eclipse voting; lost Derby
2008: Big Brown- won only start at 2; lost Belmont
2012: I'll Have Another- won 1 of 3, stakes placed; did not attempt TC
2014: California Chrome- won 3 of 7, including stakes; lost Belmont

Now, recent Triple Crown winners:
1973: Secretariat- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)
1977: Seattle Slew- champion 2yo (won 3 of 3)
1978: Affirmed- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)

Finally,

2015: American Pharaoh- champion 2yo (won 2 of 3)

Other curiosities:

-2 of Bob Baffert's other Triple Crown failures won 2 of 3 starts as 2yos. American Pharaoh won 2 of 3 starts as a 2yo.

-of all the horses listed, only 2 ran in the Del Mar Futurity at 2, Silver Charm and California Chrome, both of whom failed in the Belmont. American Pharaoh won the Del Mar Futurity last year.

-average starts at 2 for modern Triple Crown winner = 7
-average starts at 2 for recent Triple Crown failure = 5

-24 of the 29 Triple Crown failures competed in stakes as 2yos

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Fred, let's look at dual classic winners:

1963: Chateaugay- won 2 of 5 starts at 2; lost Preakness
1964: Northern Dancer- champion 2yo in Canada (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1966: Kauai King- won 1 of 4 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1967: Damascus- won 3 of 4 starts at 2 including Remsen; lost Derby
1968: Forward Pass- stakes winner in 2 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1969: Majestic Prince- winner of both starts at 2; lost Belmont
1971: Canonero II- won 1 of 3 starts at 2 (2 in NA); lost Belmont
1972: Riva Ridge- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Preakness
1974: Little Current- maiden in 4 starts at 2; lost Derby
1976: Bold Forbes- won 7 of 8 starts including stakes; lost Preakness
1979: Spectacular Bid- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1981: Pleasant Colony- won 2 of 5 starts including Remsen; lost Belmont
1984: Swale- won 5 of 7 (2nd in vote for champion); lost Preakness
1987: Alysheba- won 1 of 7 starts, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Belmont
1988: Risen Star- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Derby
1989: Sunday Silence- won 1 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
1991: Hansel- won 3 of 5, stakes winner; lost Derby
1993: Tabasco Cat- won 3 of 6, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Derby
1995: Thunder Gulch- won 2 of 6 including Remsen; lost Preakness
1997: Silver Charm- won 2 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
1998: Real Quiet- won 2 of 9 starts, including G1; lost Belmont
1999: Charismatic- won 1 of 7 starts; lost Belmont
2002: War Emblem- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
2003: Funny Cide- won 3 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
2004: Smarty Jones- won 2 of 2 including stakes; lost Belmont
2006: Afleet Alex- won 4 of 6, G1, 2nd in Eclipse voting; lost Derby
2008: Big Brown- won only start at 2; lost Belmont
2012: I'll Have Another- won 1 of 3, stakes placed; did not attempt TC
2014: California Chrome- won 3 of 7, including stakes; lost Belmont

Now, recent Triple Crown winners:
1973: Secretariat- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)
1977: Seattle Slew- champion 2yo (won 3 of 3)
1978: Affirmed- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)

Finally,

2015: American Pharaoh- champion 2yo (won 2 of 3)

Other curiosities:

-2 of Bob Baffert's other Triple Crown failures won 2 of 3 starts as 2yos. American Pharaoh won 2 of 3 starts as a 2yo.

-of all the horses listed, only 2 ran in the Del Mar Futurity at 2, Silver Charm and California Chrome, both of whom failed in the Belmont. American Pharaoh won the Del Mar Futurity last year.

-average starts at 2 for modern Triple Crown winner = 7
-average starts at 2 for recent Triple Crown failure = 5

-24 of the 29 Triple Crown failures competed in stakes as 2yos

Correct me IF I wrong because all you have done is repp'd nothing which discounts the simple fact that of the last 7 2 year old champs that have attempted to win TC WHEN THEY WON THE FIRST 2 LEGS ONLY S Bid lost. YES OR NO will do.

[Sightseek]

I have a very important question....


what is toot???

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Freddy, there are 11 Triple Crown winners.

6 of those were 2yo champions in one form or another. The other 5 were not, and would not have been even if there were formal Eclipse Awards at the time.

Anyway you slice it 6 of the last 7 2 year old champs which won the first two legs succeeded in their quest to win TC. It's a fact and discounting it and or minimizing it is simply silly especially when you consider S Bid and his world class ability and bone head jock. To me AP is a stone cold cinch racing against nice colts certainly above par but hardily in his league. Materiality will get drowned when pressured by AP. Geez Upstart should have beat him

Listening to Baffert told you as much he NEVER thought Dortmund an undefeated Multiple Graded winner had a pray when they matched up and Dortmund is at least or shall we say as good or better then CC last year.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I have a very important question....


what is toot???

In my world Cocaine

[Arletta]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Anyway you slice it 6 of the last 7 2 year old champs which won the first two legs succeeded in their quest to win TC. It's a fact and discounting it and or minimizing it is simply silly especially when you consider S Bid and his world class ability and bone head jock. To me AP is a stone cold cinch racing against nice colts certainly above par but hardily in his league. Materiality will get drowned when pressured by AP. Geez Upstart should have beat him

Listening to Baffert told you as much he NEVER thought Dortmund an undefeated Multiple Graded winner had a pray when they matched up and Dortmund is at least or shall we say as good or better then CC last year.

Dortmund ran 3rd in the Derby and 4th in the Preakness.. How is that better than CC who won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Arletta

Dortmund ran 3rd in the Derby and 4th in the Preakness.. How is that better than CC who won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness?

Pre Derby he was at least equally accomplished

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

It's a fact and discounting it and or minimizing it is simply silly especially when you consider S Bid and his world class ability and bone head jock.

Let me get this straight...Spectacular Bid had all the tools to win the Triple Crown, including the all important Eclipse award as champion juvenile, and yet failed in his attempt.

Somehow, this is proof that American Pharaoh is a cinch?

All that proves is that if American Pharaoh loses the Belmont, fans will simply claim he should have won the Triple Crown.

Just like he should have won the BC Juvenile (never mind that physically he couldn't even start in the race).

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Call me crazy, but every time we have a Triple Crown on the line, We all get to relive some of the greatest triple crown runs in the last 37 (and counting) years. If AP wins the Triple Crown these great horses become a footnote in history, where as they come back alive for the three weeks between the Preakness and the Belmont. we get to read and watch them race again, as you keep hearing about the misses. The fifteen reasons are:

1 Spectacular Bid
2 Easy Goer
3 Sunday Silence
4 Alysheba
5 Bet Twice
6 Real Quiet
7 Victory Gallop
8 Silver Charm
9 Touch Gold
10 Funny Cide
11 Empire Maker
12 Smarty Jones
13 Big Brown
14 I'll Have Another
15 California Chrome

Every year we get to watch Their TC races again, and relive history, these are some of the greatest that have ever run,I don't want to start a new list. I don't think I'll have another Triple Crown winner, I want to add to this list instead. Like I said call me crazy.........

This doesn't prove anything. Every horse and every race, including the Belmont, is different. By the thread title, I thought I was going to read something profound and enlightening?

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Call me crazy, but I think AP may be The One who ends the drought. If he does it doesn't take a thing away from those Triple Crown tries. Although I will grant you this: studying those failed attempts is a great exercise reminding us of just how many things can go wrong, and how many great horses came so close. What we want, of course, is irrelevant to the outcome. As for me, I want to see him do it, and do it with class and authority.

You're crazy!

...but i think you are right. He could do it.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Correct me IF I wrong because all you have done is repp'd nothing which discounts the simple fact that of the last 7 2 year old champs that have attempted to win TC WHEN THEY WON THE FIRST 2 LEGS ONLY S Bid lost. YES OR NO will do.

it's a good sign that we had 7 chances in the 2000's so far.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Correct me IF I wrong because all you have done is repp'd nothing which discounts the simple fact that of the last 7 2 year old champs that have attempted to win TC WHEN THEY WON THE FIRST 2 LEGS ONLY S Bid lost. YES OR NO will do.

hmmm. You want a yes/no answer from Rollo Tomasi, but you avoided my question to you. Let me paraphrase it: If the close voting for 2014 Juvenile Champion had gone the other way, and Texas Red had won it, would that mean that American Pharoah would have a smaller chance to win the TC, in your opinion?

You've written that AP is "a stone cold cinch" to win the Belmont. How much of that is due to his squeaking out a 53%/47% win over Texas Red, 126-111? In fact, AP got less than 50% of all the votes cast for 2-yr-old Champion.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I posted about this the other day to some degree...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=56

It's impossible to have a logical, honest conversation about horses like this with some folks. Their percentages are 100% winner and there is no way it's anything but that. Despite the fact, ya know, it's horse racing.

I agree, Travis, except that the people saying AP has zero chance are just as bad, IMO.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

hmmm. You want a yes/no answer from Rollo Tomasi, but you avoided my question to you. Let me paraphrase it: If the close voting for 2014 Juvenile Champion had gone the other way, and Texas Red had won it, would that mean that American Pharoah would have a smaller chance to win the TC, in your opinion?

You've written that AP is "a stone cold cinch" to win the Belmont. How much of that is due to his squeaking out a 53%/47% win over Texas Red, 126-111? In fact, AP got less than 50% of all the votes cast for 2-yr-old Champion.

So you want a yes no respond to a hypothetical question? If AP hadn't won the two year award for best Juvy colt he would had to overcome a 0/22 historical statistic and theoretically be very much up against history. I would suggest that given his actual form I would not be nearly are convinced he would be successful in Belmont. History is not to be dismissed as decades of situations tend to even out many a variable.