Trying To Make Money On Big Brown Today...

[Danzig]

so, if we ignore actual talent and ability, as well as level of competition. ignore history, ignore everything we've ever seen in the past...and go only by a horses win record....right?...



looks like peppers pride is going to be HOTY. at the very least, she ought to get top distaffer.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i got up at four am, and worked 14 hours today, so now i'm relaxing and taking some down time. do you mind?

as for my post count, who cares? i rank pointing out a post count with saying 'he's done enough'. oh, and with starting yet another big brown thread.

I wasn't pointing out your post count to be insulting. You said you were bored as a piggyback to Coachpants. I agreed I was the cause and sorry to break up the excitement. My fault not yours.

I think if Big Brown wins the BCC, you can expect plenty more deserving Big Brown threads.

If he doesn't, I'll still start one LOL

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I wasn't pointing out your post count to be insulting. You said you were bored as a piggyback to Coachpants. I agreed I was the cause and sorry to break up the excitement. My fault not yours.

I think if Big Brown wins the BCC, you can expect plenty more deserving Big Brown threads.

If he doesn't, I'll still start one LOL

i'll sleep better at night knowing what i have to look forward to.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Nobody's arguing against that part. . . it's not his loss that doesn't make him great - it's that his good performances aren't good enough.

So can I throw it back at you what did he need to do in those wins for him to gain some accolades? Should he have won by 50 lengths in each race?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

So can I throw it back at you what did he need to do in those wins for him to gain some accolades? Should he have won by 50 lengths in each race?

Against those horses? Probably. . . He could run faster races for starters. . .

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

So can I throw it back at you what did he need to do in those wins for him to gain some accolades? Should he have won by 50 lengths in each race?

i'd bring up cigar and ask whom big brown was supposed to beat if i was you. that's assuming a fictional you that knows who cigar is.

and it's a completely fraudulent comparison.

but it would be fun to see how people answered. excellent work with the poking stick so far. i don't know why i'm giving you advise. you're doing just fine.

[RollerDoc]

I guess I just feel like I am on the Big Brown Titanic and it has hit the iceberg. I find it very interesting that if you would research the many positive posts about Big Brown on this Board (especially after the Preakness leading up to the Belmont), there were plenty of different tunes back then.
Now some say he is Big Crap or similar references.

I for one will not jump ship on this horse unless I witness him being beaten soundly in a race. Belmont doesn't count (officially it does) since he was right there before being pulled up.

And if he does lose before going to stud, then he loses with a fairly solid season in 2008.

But be careful naysayers! If he does win in his next race and the BCC, won't that make him Eclipse and HOY winner? That can't sit too well for you

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i'd bring up cigar and ask whom big brown was supposed to beat if i was you. that's assuming a fictional you that knows who cigar is.

and it's a completely fraudulent comparison.

but it would be fun to see how people answered. excellent work with the poking stick so far. i don't know why i'm giving you advise. you're doing just fine.

I'm not sure if I can answer since I am not fictional. But I do like your avatar.

[skippy3481]

I dont think he would win HOY unless he beats curlin. I think hes a good horse but i dont think you could ever label him great. What he did in Fl and the KD was was impressive. Just like what afleet alex did was impressive. But to be considered a great horse he needs to be impressive every race. You seem as if your trying to learn which is a great thing.

You shouldn't feel the need to defend the horse. It doesn't matter what people think of the horse. He will prove what he is on the track and and history will be a great guide to how good he was. The horse speed wise just does not compare with horses in the past 10 years. Regardless of who he beats or who beats him, this stands out against everything else.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

dude, you have no idea what the level of competition is-especially since you concede you've never heard of dr fager, one of the greatest horses of all time. not of the past couple of years, of ALL TIME. big brown isn't even a horse compared to dr fager. he doesn't belong in the same breath, let alone the same BREED!
big brown wouldn't be any faster if mother theresa owned him and the pope rode him. he's an ordinary horse, but he's better than his peers. that doesn't make him great.

there is nothing ordinary about Big Brown.. except maybe that he's brown. There are two horses running in the US better than Big Brown, Curlin and Commentator. He's not this horrible horse that you make him out to be. He has amazing accomplishments even if they were done against not so hot horses.

[Gander]

You could never label Big Brown great, but you can use the word great with Curlin? How exactly?

People bash the horses Big Brown has beaten this year, but what about the horses Curlin has beaten? That was the worst field ever in the Dubai World Cup (I dont even think thats arguable). He beat Well Armed and Asiatic Boy. And lets look at who he beat in the Foster...Barcola (couldnt even run a competitive race against Evening Attire), Einstein (nice turf horse but not top class on dirt).

Curlin hasnt been impressive in every race either. He got whipped by Any Given Saturday last summer and that horse wasnt that good. He wasnt impressive in his turf race. He got a perfect trip in the Belmont and still lost to a filly. I wouldnt call any of those races impressive.

By today's standards, I guess I'd call him great. But so is Big Brown too. Whats the barometer anyways? We no longer have real horses like Skip Away and Cigar. So I guess we use Curlin and Big Brown to define greatness?!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

there is nothing ordinary about Big Brown.. except maybe that he's brown. There are two horses running in the US better than Big Brown, Curlin and Commentator. He's not this horrible horse that you make him out to be. He has amazing accomplishments even if they were done against not so hot horses.

when did i say he was horrible? not going to argue about the fact that only two horses are better either, as i agree with that.
as for his accomplishments, i thought he ran two very good races in florida and kentucky, as i've said countless times..doesn't make him to be the great horses that others have said he is. absolutely he's the best 3 yo this year-but how much is that saying exactly, considering the level of talent this year.
this is not a black and white issue. it's not accurate to say he's either great, or he's terrible-that if you don't feel one way, you feel the other.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Gander

You could never label Big Brown great, but you can use the word great with Curlin? How exactly?

People bash the horses Big Brown has beaten this year, but what about the horses Curlin has beaten? That was the worst field ever in the Dubai World Cup (I dont even think thats arguable). He beat Well Armed and Asiatic Boy. And lets look at who he beat in the Foster...Barcola (couldnt even run a competitive race against Evening Attire), Einstein (nice turf horse but not top class on dirt).

Curlin hasnt been impressive in every race either. He got whipped by Any Given Saturday last summer and that horse wasnt that good. He wasnt impressive in his turf race. He got a perfect trip in the Belmont and still lost to a filly. I wouldnt call any of those races impressive.

By today's standards, I guess I'd call him great. But so is Big Brown too. Whats the barometer anyways? We no longer have real horses like Skip Away and Cigar. So I guess we use Curlin and Big Brown to define greatness?!

i don't consider either of them great, by any means. to lower standards to meet the reality of horse racing these days would be wrong, which is why i take the stand i do.

the last couple of years we've had decent horses- i thought last years crop was a deep one-but i don't know that any of those horses, curlin included, really hold a candle to horses we've had the pleasure of watching over the years. contentious doesn't mean spectacular.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Not sure why you are stumped? So he would not be great IF he wins two Triple Crown Races, Two Grade One Races, and the BCC?

I think that equates into a great year.. but I dont know about a "great" horse. Peoples definitions of "great" vary. If your definition of "great" means top 100 horse of all time, then Big Brown doesnt fit. not even close. If your definition of "great" is winning the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and Haskell... then Big Brown is "great". Its very subjective. Dont feel bad everyone here gives everyone crap about their opinions (myself included).

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

did you bet him in his first start..on the turf ..i did ..hes ok but any top 3 runner in ANY TC RACE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS WOULD SMOKE HIM.

this is a insane statement hooves. ANY TC RACE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS?? Are you fing kidding me???

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

this is a insane statement hooves. ANY TC RACE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS?? Are you fing kidding me???

i'm sure he was thinking of sarava when he typed that.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't consider either of them great, by any means. to lower standards to meet the reality of horse racing these days would be wrong, which is why i take the stand i do.

the last couple of years we've had decent horses- i thought last years crop was a deep one-but i don't know that any of those horses, curlin included, really hold a candle to horses we've had the pleasure of watching over the years. contentious doesn't mean spectacular.

Danzig,

I thought the field in the Kentucky Derby 2006 was a pretty strong one when Barbaro won. Do you agree? Or anyone else agree?

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

this is a insane statement hooves. ANY TC RACE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS?? Are you fing kidding me???

I think hes being sarcastic or was stoned when he wrote this!
Didnt that Ramsey horse Nolans Rat run 3rd in the Belmont?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by skippy3481

I dont think he would win HOY unless he beats curlin. I think hes a good horse but i dont think you could ever label him great. What he did in Fl and the KD was was impressive. Just like what afleet alex did was impressive. But to be considered a great horse he needs to be impressive every race. You seem as if your trying to learn which is a great thing.

Not so, skippy. Spectacular Bid's Belmont was not impressive. Neither was Secretariat's 3rd place finish in the Wood.

Danzig, IMO your calling Big Brown "ordinary" is almost as outrageous as Roller Doc calling him "great".

--Dunbar

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You make a good point about the ordinary thing. If you look at what big Brown has accomplished in his short career, it's certainly not ordinary. But, when you look at competition and try and compare him to others, he does not come across as a great, IMO.

I agree with this statement... but I do think he is having a great year, you cant blame the lack of competition on him. Any horse to win the type of races he has would have had a "great" year. At this point he is much more accomplished than Curlin was at the same time last year.