How do you.....

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Of those five - only Afleet Alex has so far managed to hit the double digit mark in career starts.

While Curlin isn't yet retired - not a single one of those five have so much as started in a race a year from the day of their debut.

Of those five - none have managed to win a Horse of the Year title - though Curlin will in a few weeks - and he will do so in one of the sadest years of recent memory for the older male division.

Candy Ride obviously never won a Triple Crown race - but his career would fit very well with those five otherwise.

Obviously a spectacular talent - but one with a very sexy resume if you get past the fact he never won a Championship and was very lightly raced.

Retiring undefeated and as a two surface sensation.

* Turf: winning two Group 1 turf races in South America by tremendous margins in big fields - setting a world record in one of those wins. In his only American turf start - he won a Grade 2 stake - the 2nd place finisher won a Grade 1 by 5 lengths in course record time next out.

* Dirt: Setting a track record in a 123 Beyer Pacific Classic win with Krone up - where Bailey was allowed to get Medeglia D' Oro a cozy lead and the favorable trip - but he just got drowned by a much better horse that day. A future Japan Cup Dirt winner and a two-time Big Cap winner a distant 3rd and 4th.

Barbaro also won six times in his life, 3 on grass, 3 on dirt, without ever really losing. However, I believe Barbaro compares very unfavorably with Candy Ride.

In Barbaro's case -

Dirt: he only has one big race on dirt. the Kentucky Derby. He got a dream trip in that Derby, while his two main rivals in the betting (the subsequntly awful Sweetnorthernsaint & Brother Derek) had awful trips in very poor showings. Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer made the Tri in that race. Inspite of the perfect stalking trip - Barbaro's Beyer was 111 - only two points above par for the avg winning Derby figure - and 3 points below Funny Cide's similar trip Preakness figure! His other two dirt wins - he had future bad claimer Great Point close to him...and he won a stretch duel with Sharp Humor.

Turf: While he had the look of a future can't miss superstar as a turf horse, only one of his three turf wins was a Graded Stake - a 3 3/4 length Grade 3 Stakes win over Wise River.

Out of the five horses you mentioned - I'd probably say the best performance ever turned in was Smarty Jones' in his Preakness win. Very slightly over Curlin's Breeders Cup Classic win and Bernardini's Classic 2nd place.

DrugS, how would you rank them?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Because I don't want to type up a million words saying you can't really learn anything by rating them....so rating them really doesn't matter - I will give in and do so.

Curlin's career is still unfinished - and when you look at what is out there in the older male division now - he's got a very easy road to #1 on everyones list of these if he stays sound. I will rate him though as if he's been retired today...and not account for what he might do later on.

#1 Smarty Jones (really - almost nothing seperates these five horses in a rating system. Especially the top 3. His Preakness win was awesome. His Rebel win was strong. His Belmont Stakes effort was massively better than looked. I wasn't a big fan of his - but he was a very good 2yo, excellent 3yo, he had his huge race, and where was his bad race?)

#2 Curlin (He was always the better horse than Street Sense and Hard Spun, but as an immature type in a race run as the Derby was - he wasn't going to show it. Won the Preakness as a lightly raced horse despite getting outtripped. Finished off 3yo season VERY strong. Doesn't corner well, isn't very effective picking through the pack, thus prone to needing wide trips)

#3 Bernardini (he lossed his debut sprinting - A. P. Indy's don't do six furlongs well. After that, it was a steady diet of one impressive race followed by another slightly more impressive race - and that trend concluded with his better than looked 2nd in the Classic. A good case could be made for #1. However, all of his wins came with soft trips in soft fields.)

#4 Afleet Alex (He was the star of a weak triple crown series - even though his best game naturally was probably elongated sprints. Great training job. Very underrated early season 2yo. His win in the Sanford was outstanding.)

#5 Barbaro (he easily was cut out to be the kind of horse that could top this list. I'm rating based on what he did though - and not on a projection as to what he could have done)

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Of those five - only Afleet Alex has so far managed to hit the double digit mark in career starts.

While Curlin isn't yet retired - not a single one of those five have so much as started in a race a year from the day of their debut.

Of those five - none have managed to win a Horse of the Year title - though Curlin will in a few weeks - and he will do so in one of the sadest years of recent memory for the older male division.

Candy Ride obviously never won a Triple Crown race - but his career would fit very well with those five otherwise.

Obviously a spectacular talent - but one with a very sexy resume if you get past the fact he never won a Championship and was very lightly raced.

Retiring undefeated and as a two surface sensation.

* Turf: winning two Group 1 turf races in South America by tremendous margins in big fields - setting a world record in one of those wins. In his only American turf start - he won a Grade 2 stake - the 2nd place finisher won a Grade 1 by 5 lengths in course record time next out.

* Dirt: Setting a track record in a 123 Beyer Pacific Classic win with Krone up - where Bailey was allowed to get Medeglia D' Oro a cozy lead and the favorable trip - but he just got drowned by a much better horse that day. A future Japan Cup Dirt winner and a two-time Big Cap winner a distant 3rd and 4th.

Barbaro also won six times in his life, 3 on grass, 3 on dirt, without ever really losing. However, I believe Barbaro compares very unfavorably with Candy Ride.

In Barbaro's case -

Dirt: he only has one big race on dirt. the Kentucky Derby. He got a dream trip in that Derby, while his two main rivals in the betting (the subsequntly awful Sweetnorthernsaint & Brother Derek) had awful trips in very poor showings. Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer made the Tri in that race. Inspite of the perfect stalking trip - Barbaro's Beyer was 111 - only two points above par for the avg winning Derby figure - and 3 points below Funny Cide's similar trip Preakness figure! His other two dirt wins - he had future bad claimer Great Point close to him...and he won a stretch duel with Sharp Humor.

Turf: While he had the look of a future can't miss superstar as a turf horse, only one of his three turf wins was a Graded Stake - a 3 3/4 length Grade 3 Stakes win over Wise River.

Out of the five horses you mentioned - I'd probably say the best performance ever turned in was Smarty Jones' in his Preakness win. Very slightly over Curlin's Breeders Cup Classic win and Bernardini's Classic 2nd place.

I forget about Candy Ride all of the time because we saw so little of him, but boy was that Pacific Classic awesome.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It takes a special talent for any horse to win with him....however the Arkansas Derby is hardly a career defining race and whether his legion of fans like it or not, the torrential rain prior to his Derby made that race moot. Lionheart was absolutely out of gas when they turned for home and still held second easily. The truth is that nobody ran a step that day.

Hey, losing to Birdstone was no disgrace. But, it was hardly the sign of a great horse.

I agree 100% about Birdstone. Nobody is a bigger supporter of him than I am. Unlike nearly every other person alive, I have always thought that on a dry racetrack, at distances of 10f or beyond, Birdstone was simply a better animal than Smarty Jones. Unfortunately their careers were both so short that it is impossible to know for sure.

I disagree with you when you say that the extremely wet track in the Derby makes that race "moot" in any discussion of the horse's greatness. I think the ability to win on different types of tracks probably should be one element considered when determining a horse's greatness. The fact that Smarty actually picked up his feet and ran in that slop (while horses like Birdstone and Borrego didn't bother running a step) seems like a valid and important point in favor of those that argue he is in fact "great."

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

By the way, Smarty Jones ran one great race in his entire career, the Preakness, and failed the one time everything didn't go his way, the Belmont. Calling him great is like declaring a bartender great because the one time you bought a drink from her she somehow managed to pick out the only cold beer in cooler. Let her do it a few more times before acknowledging her exceptional talents.

This goes against your earlier belief (which I 100% agree with) that will they remember you in 25 years, 50 years. Smarty Jones will be remembered as great in 25 years, as he is now by 95% of the racing population. Everyone of his races was pretty amazing (other than the Southwest where he struggled around the track against mediocre types.)

Is Seattle Slew not great because he ran poorly in the Hollywood race?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It takes a special talent for any horse to win with him....however the Arkansas Derby is hardly a career defining race and whether his legion of fans like it or not, the torrential rain prior to his Derby made that race moot. Lionheart was absolutely out of gas when they turned for home and still held second easily. The truth is that nobody ran a step that day.

Hey, losing to Birdstone was no disgrace. But, it was hardly the sign of a great horse.

He was going to win that Derby, torrential rain or not.

[Oaklawnfan]

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Oaklawnfan

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness.

I so want one!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Oaklawnfan

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness.

This promotion pales in comparison to the opening day 50 cent corned beef sandwiches...

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Arazi clearly wasn't great; he was, however, precocious. And, following his Derby prep win, a grossly overbet horse.

Look at his three-year-old races: he did nothing, save a Group II win.

I don't think he was ever the same after the surgery and the stupid Derby attempt. But I thought his Derby run was as good as his BC run was. He just didn't have the foundation under him to finish it off. It proved to me though that the BC was not a fluke.