Biggest gap between the best horse in a crop and the rest

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

Slew O Gold was Slew's first crop. Swale was his second crop.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

.......swale, no sir the late great gate dancer punched him in the neck

[blackthroatedwind]

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

yeah, i should have been more specific. i was wondering how long it would take for someone to point out that invasor was in the AA crop.

I should have said that to qualify, it would have to be a horse running in the usa at roughly the time of the triple crown, give or take a few months.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

I agree, but I think if Smarty had stuck around, he would've eaten alive those other 3-year-olds in his class all season long.

[blackthroatedwind]

Thunder Gulch, who you seem to think was dominant, was winning photos from Suave Prospect in those Florida races.

Please.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Afleet Alex had lost in each of his first three attempts in route races. He also didn't offer much competition for Bellamy Road in the betting going into the Kentucky Derby---so, he didn't come into the triple crown series far superior to his crop.

He never raced after the triple crown series...so, he wasn't far superior to his crop after the triple crown series.

He was, by far, the dominant horse in his crops triple crown series...his domination was awfully short lived though.

Spectacular Bid is obviously the most dominant horse in his crop to race in the last 30 years.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thunder Gulch, who you seem to think was dominant, was winning photos from Suave Prospect in those Florida races.

Please.

1988, the Lakers won the NBA title four games to three over the Pistons. In the series, the Pistons actually outscored the Lakers by 18 total points. That year, the Lakers won 4-3 over Utah, 4-3 over Dallas, and 4-3 over Detroit. Pushed to the limit in all three series.

2000, the Lakers won the NBA title four games to two over the Pacers. In the series, the Pacers actually outscored the Lakers by 11 total points.

2002, the Lakers won the Western Conference finals four games to three over the Kings. In the series, the Lakers won their games by 7, 4, 1 and 2 points. The Kings actually outscored the Lakers by two total points.

1978, Affirmed won the Derby by 1 1/2 lengths, the Preakness by a neck, and the Belmont by a head.

Maybe I'm not making any point at all. The one I am trying to make though is that in each of those instances, the one that needed to find that extra when it counted most, got it done. I like to see dominating performances but I don't feel it's necessary to win by 20 points a game or by ten lengths to prove your dominance. If u get it done everytime it counts, or the vast majority of the times, to me, u are the clear leader. Where was Suave Prospect in the finals? While Barbaro was seemingly having his hands full with Sharp Humor and Great Point in the prelims, where were those horses when it counted the most?

Originally Posted by King Glorious

1978, Affirmed won the Derby by 1 1/2 lengths, the Preakness by a neck, and the Belmont by a head.

Maybe I'm not making any point at all. The one I am trying to make though is that in each of those instances, the one that needed to find that extra when it counted most, got it done.

But it is not a good analogy because no one would argue that Affirmed was head and shoulders above the rest of his crop including Alydar. On the contrary. It's great that he won the TC w/ Alydar breathing down his neck, but you cant say he was far superior, in fact he lost Alyday a few times before and after the TC.

Anyhow, interesting thread and interesting argument from KG. Entertaining reading in the lull before the derby..

[blackthroatedwind]

Aside from how bad the analogy was, the Lakers beat the Pistons on a horrendous late game call against Bill Lambeer in game six, and the fact that Isiah Thomas twisted his ankle in that same game, and was well below his game for the deciding game.

If you want to stick to that analogy, then you have proven how weak your argument for Thunder Gulch was, as no horse can be considered dominent simply because lucky breaks fell their way.

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse. Star Standard was second in his Belmont.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I agree, but I think if Smarty had stuck around, he would've eaten alive those other 3-year-olds in his class all season long.

Well he didn't stick around so it is just another case of a hot house flower retiring

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

Fair point, but in the case of Smarty Jones did anyone else from the class of '04 really go on to do anything to even warrant consideration?

I guess you could say the now-6yo Lava Man ended up being the best older horse as far as accomplishments go.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Rock Hard Ten wore down Lava Man in the Malibu Stakes, won the Strub, beat both Saint Liam and Borrego in the Big Cap, and ended his career with a comfortable win over Haskell winner Roman Ruler and Choctaw Nation.

He wasn't bad.

If you want to use horses like AA and SJ--horses who never ran after the Belmont Stakes---than why not a horse like Risen Star? Who trip handicapers felt ran the best race of anyone in the Derby...and followed that up with a Preakness and Belmont Stakes sweep. Winning the Belmont by a city block.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Rock Hard Ten wore down Lava Man in the Malibu Stakes, won the Strub, beat both Saint Liam and Borrego in the Big Cap, and ended his career with a comfortable win over Haskell winner Roman Ruler and Choctaw Nation.

He wasn't bad.
If you want to use horses like AA and SJ--horses who never ran after the Belmont Stakes---than why not a horse like Risen Star? Who trip handicapers felt ran the best race of anyone in the Derby...and followed that up with a Preakness and Belmont Stakes sweep. Winning the Belmont by a city block.

He's absolutely the #2 from the crop, and SJ destroyed him twice. 'Nuff said.

What a stunning animal as well. Lane's End is pretty good about showing their stallions, he is an absolute beast- one of the largest thoroughbreds I have ever seen.

[ARyan]

I am still perplexed by the Bellemy Road comment....

However...I would say Alex and Point Given are pretty good picks.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Now, I'm not saying that Afleet Alex is the best horse of the last 3 decades, but can anyone find an example of a horse that is that much better than the next best horse in their crop, compared to alex vs the rest of his junky crop?

Ruffian.

[miraja2]

Limiting it to 3yos in the last 30 years....I would say it comes down to two horses.
Spectacular Bid.
Point Given.
They both accomplished a great deal in their 3yo campaigns and neither had any truly outstanding competition in their crops.
As several have already pointed out, it is important to distinguish this question from one which asks simply..."Who was the best horse?" I think Sunday Silence was better than Point Given, and I think Affirmed was better than Spectacular Bid (I know I'm really in the minority on that one) but neither Sunday Silence nor Affirmed could be said to have dominated their competition like SB and PG did.
As for Afleet Alex, I think he certeinly could have been in this discussion as I feel that if he had continued to race he would have probably defeated Flower Alley in the Jim Dandy/Travers. Of course.....we will never know that, so I don't think it makes sense to compare him to horses like Point Given and Spectacular Bid that went on to fall success.