Maiden Derby winners

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Man O' War isn't just overrated.....he's massively overrated and clearly does not belong in the top 25 horses of the 1900's.

And as for him ducking Exterminator......


"Kilmer was anxious to take on the super horse; it was Sam Riddle, Man o' War's owner, who appeared to duck the issue. Exterminator shipped from Saratoga to Canada where he won a stakes on August 28. Riddle immediately announced that Man o' war would contest the Saratoga Cup three days later figuring the coast was clear. When Kilmer got wind of this Exterminator was quickly brought back.

Racing writer David Alexander put it this way: "Exterminator came back to win the Saratoga Cup, despite the fact he had had a hard race three days before. When the frightening news of Exterminator's return reached Riddle, however, he withdrew Man o' War from the weight-for-age event."

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Man O' War isn't just overrated.....he's massively overrated and clearly does not belong in the top 25 horses of the 1900's.

And as for him ducking Exterminator......


"Kilmer was anxious to take on the super horse; it was Sam Riddle, Man o' War's owner, who appeared to duck the issue. Exterminator shipped from Saratoga to Canada where he won a stakes on August 28. Riddle immediately announced that Man o' war would contest the Saratoga Cup three days later figuring the coast was clear. When Kilmer got wind of this Exterminator was quickly brought back.

Racing writer David Alexander put it this way: "Exterminator came back to win the Saratoga Cup, despite the fact he had had a hard race three days before. When the frightening news of Exterminator's return reached Riddle, however, he withdrew Man o' War from the weight-for-age event."

man o war ran in the jockey club stakes, in which exterminator could have run, and his owner chose not to-it was weight for age, and evidently he didn't want to give weight to man o war.
exterminator was invited to that match race, and was pulled out. same reason, refusal to run under weight for age conditions. if he really felt he could beat man o war, why not run?
also, there had always been plans to run man o war at four-they felt there was plenty of time to face the gelding-but when they were told the kind of weight he'd have to carry, they retired him instead.

i just don't see how you can consider his abilities, under the weights he carried, the times he ran, and the ease with which he won, and think he's overrated. also consider the horsemen who thought he was so special. i mean, a three year old carrying 139. a two year old carrying 130 and above like it was nothing.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i really wish this bit of fiction would cease. he did not duck exterminator, who was invited, and didn't show to what turned into a match race between man o war and sir barton. and don't forget, sir barton also defeated exterminator-hard to say which of those was the best older horse.
i suppose you can make man o wars stats fit your agenda of him being overrated. have at it.

You might enjoy this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Xkunfywo4

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

You might enjoy this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Xkunfywo4

Thanks for posting this... if that horse wasn't GREAT, I don't know what horse is. Built like a brick shithouse.

[boswd]

You also have to remember, back then The Derby didn't have some prestige that it holds now. It was still an important race but the Belmont, Preakness and even The Travers were regarding as more important races.
I think it was in the 40's when the Derby started to make it's move as the most important race.
So therefore you would get some "not so great" horses winning the Derby

[Linny]

Great points easy goer.

Remember too that timing was far less accurate in 1920. Are races were timed manually and it's not like they could verify "odd" times with a videotape. Starts were chaotic and a few 1/2 seconds one way or the other make a big difference.
Tracks were not groomed and prepared surfaces as they are today. Drainage was dreadful and the condition "heavy" was common.

[slotdirt]

Totally forgot about the lack of a starting gate back then. I wish I had some video of that, but having seen a start at a steeplechase, I have to imagine a mass start back in Man O'War's day was completely chaotic.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boswd

You also have to remember, back then The Derby didn't have some prestige that it holds now. It was still an important race but the Belmont, Preakness and even The Travers were regarding as more important races.
I think it was in the 40's when the Derby started to make it's move as the most important race.
So therefore you would get some "not so great" horses winning the Derby

i glanced over part of the book dealing with the derby, and mow not going there.
i know riddle thought about it-and also mentions that he thought about regret, the first filly to win it, and that she was off til august after doing so. riddle wanted to enjoy the horse and racing all year, and of course back then travelling to ky wasn't quite so easy as now. it also mentions about horses sickening, or even dying, due to shipping. riddle preferred keeping man o war right there on the east coast within hours of many different tracks.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i glanced over part of the book dealing with the derby, and mow not going there.
i know riddle thought about it-and also mentions that he thought about regret, the first filly to win it, and that she was off til august after doing so. riddle wanted to enjoy the horse and racing all year, and of course back then travelling to ky wasn't quite so easy as now. it also mentions about horses sickening, or even dying, due to shipping. riddle preferred keeping man o war right there on the east coast within hours of many different tracks.

So in essence MOW won the three most important races for 3 yr olds back then. And since there really wasn't a Triple Crown as we now it, in an odd way MOW did win it. With The Preakness, the Belmont and the Travers being the most important races back in 1920.

interesting, I think there is only one horse to win both the derby and the Travers, or is it TC + Travers? Hmmm, is The Bid? What am I thinking of?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by easy goer

interesting, I think there is only one horse to win both the derby and the Travers, or is it TC + Travers? Hmmm, is The Bid? What am I thinking of?

There have been a lot of horses to win both the Derby and Travers...and Spectacular Bid wasn't one of them...he didn't start in the Travers.

Affirmed and Whirlaway are the only two triple crown winners to cross the wire first in the Travers---and Affirmed was DQ'ed.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boswd

So in essence MOW won the three most important races for 3 yr olds back then. And since there really wasn't a Triple Crown as we now it, in an odd way MOW did win it. With The Preakness, the Belmont and the Travers being the most important races back in 1920.

i finished the book today, interesting that one of MOW's records stayed on the book for years, until the legend known as kelso finally broke it. and for those who bring up him 'ducking' exterminator-ex wasn't even considered the top older horse, sir barton was....ex was considered the best stayer-and he had a couple shots at man o war, and bypassed them. and of course man o war met with the mighty sir barton, the rest as they say is history...i recommend that book to anyone who might be interested. it was pretty good, well-researched, and not a 'drool fest'. i had read several books on big red previously, and found stuff in here that i hadn't known about--especially about 'hopped horses'. seems way back when, they used to run some of their horses on cocaine!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Sir Barton never won again after the match race loss to Man O' War.

He was 3rd as an odds-on favorite at LRL in his next start. Than was 3rd in a $3,600 stake at Pimlico at 2/5 odds. He finished his career, fittingly running 2nd to stablemate Billy Kelly in a stake at Pimlico.

I say fittingly, because Billy Kelly beat Sir Barton nine times in his career.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i finished the book today, interesting that one of MOW's records stayed on the book for years, until the legend known as kelso finally broke it. and for those who bring up him 'ducking' exterminator-ex wasn't even considered the top older horse, sir barton was....ex was considered the best stayer-and he had a couple shots at man o war, and bypassed them. and of course man o war met with the mighty sir barton, the rest as they say is history...i recommend that book to anyone who might be interested. it was pretty good, well-researched, and not a 'drool fest'. i had read several books on big red previously, and found stuff in here that i hadn't known about--especially about 'hopped horses'. seems way back when, they used to run some of their horses on cocaine!!

What book was it that you read? I love the old history books on horse racing. I mentioned this earlier in the thread but in case you missed it. read "They're Off!!!! Horse racing at Saratoga." Fantastic book about the history of the sport not only for The Spa but all over from Churhill Down, the Belmont to Santa Anita and all those old tracks down in Queens, and Long Island. Also all the sports greats. Wonderful book and a must for any horse racing fan.