The Belmont Stakes...the double Bunny

[moses]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

The question needs to be asked, i believe.

Would you still feel this way if you were the owner of the horses??

Didn’t people used to say that there was a conflict if an owner ran multiple horses in one race? Now there is an issue if an owner doesn’t run multiple horses in one race?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I'm feeling that if Audible and Noble Indy are kept out of the Belmont in order to help Justify's chances, then there ought to be an asterisk next to Justify's TC, should he in fact win it versus the reduced competition.

Noble Indy was NEVER under consideration for the Belmont. Pletcher told ATR Tuesday afterwards that they would look for different kind of opportunities for him.

Should we asterisk Citation? His Calumet stablemate Coaltown (widely considered the crop's 2nd best horse) was 2nd to him in the Derby and not brought back out for Preakness or Belmont?

And for the record comparing 'reduced competition', Justify already beat more horses in the Derby (19) than Citation did in his entire Crown run (15). Five in the Derby; Three in the Preakness; Seven in the Belmont.

[Kasept]

And since we're on the topic of 'competition', Citation beat only a TOTAL of 12 different horses in the Triple Crown with 3 of the 15 (Vulcan's Forge, Better Self, Escadru) having run in 2 legs apiece..

Justify has already beaten 23 different horses in 2 legs and if he were to best probable newcomers Blended Citizen, Gronkowski, Restoring Hope and Bandua in the Belmont, the number swells to 27.

So GTFO with the 'reduced competition' nonsense.

[57rick]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And since we're on the topic of 'competition', Citation beat only a TOTAL of 12 different horses in the Triple Crown with 3 of the 15 (Vulcan's Forge, Better Self, Escadru) having run in 2 legs apiece..

Justify has already beaten 23 different horses in 2 legs and if he were to best probable newcomers Blended Citizen, Gronkowski, Restoring Hope and Bandua i the Belmont, the number swells to 27.

So GTFO with the 'reduced competition' nonsense.

I’m officially old!
Had to Google GTFO!
Don’t have any kids so I cut myself a little slack��

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And since we're on the topic of 'competition', Citation beat only a TOTAL of 12 different horses in the Triple Crown with 3 of the 15 (Vulcan's Forge, Better Self, Escadru) having run in 2 legs apiece..

Justify has already beaten 23 different horses in 2 legs and if he were to best probable newcomers Blended Citizen, Gronkowski, Restoring Hope and Bandua i the Belmont, the number swells to 27.

So GTFO with the 'reduced competition' nonsense.

The language is hurting my virgin ears lmao. I was waiting for you to hammer this. In my opinion Audible running or not running isn't a big deal The race is full of his style of running and I don't think he is much better then a lot of these. Would like to see Noble Indy run as he would keep an honest pace with Justify and I thought that LA derby was a gutsy win. That being said Justify still needs to run well to win this and will be a well deserved champion if he completes it. Horse just ran two taxing races so not sure what's left in the tank.

[Dawgswin]

We keep talking around and around about this but no one has answered the real question. IF Justify wins does Bob change the license plate on his Bentley?

[South Beach Luv]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And since we're on the topic of 'competition', Citation beat only a TOTAL of 12 different horses in the Triple Crown with 3 of the 15 (Vulcan's Forge, Better Self, Escadru) having run in 2 legs apiece..

Justify has already beaten 23 different horses in 2 legs and if he were to best probable newcomers Blended Citizen, Gronkowski, Restoring Hope and Bandua in the Belmont, the number swells to 27.

So GTFO with the 'reduced competition' nonsense.

Citation also won a race between the Preakness and Belmont at the KY Derby distance. Back then it was 4 weeks between the Preakness and Belmont though.

Please don't yell at me.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Noble Indy was NEVER under consideration for the Belmont. Pletcher told ATR Tuesday afterwards that they would look for different kind of opportunities for him.

Should we asterisk Citation? His Calumet stablemate Coaltown (widely considered the crop's 2nd best horse) was 2nd to him in the Derby and not brought back out for Preakness or Belmont?

And for the record comparing 'reduced competition', Justify already beat more horses in the Derby (19) than Citation did in his entire Crown run (15). Five in the Derby; Three in the Preakness; Seven in the Belmont.

Originally Posted by Kasept

And since we're on the topic of 'competition', Citation beat only a TOTAL of 12 different horses in the Triple Crown with 3 of the 15 (Vulcan's Forge, Better Self, Escadru) having run in 2 legs apiece..

Justify has already beaten 23 different horses in 2 legs and if he were to best probable newcomers Blended Citizen, Gronkowski, Restoring Hope and Bandua in the Belmont, the number swells to 27.

So GTFO with the 'reduced competition' nonsense.

Okay, just to be sure I understand your position… Once a horse has beaten a lot of horses in the Derby and Preakness, then it’s fine for the ownership to increase the horse’s chances of winning the TC by not entering a strong competitor they also own, whose trainer is lobbying for entry, and which would otherwise almost surely have been entered. In fact, not only is it “fine”, but for anyone to suggest otherwise is downright contemptible, drawing enough ire that many of us had to run to the Urban Dictionary to understand the insult. I hope I haven't misstated your position.

There’s some irony here. When California Chrome’s owner bitterly complained about how unfair it was that there were no rules restricting which horses could enter the Belmont, he was roundly laughed at. This year we have an ownership that’s actually in a position to exert some control over which other horses will show up to attempt to deny the TC bid. But no one else at Derby Trail seems to find that the least bit troublesome.

WinStar’s president, Elliot Walden, is at least wrestling with the decision, according to this article at Bloodhorse.com: https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...n-to-the-track

Audible, who finished a fast-closing third to Justify in the Kentucky Derby, is slated to work at Belmont Park May 25 for trainer Todd Pletcher. After that, Walden said they would have a conversation about the son of Into Mischief 's Belmont status.

"Obviously, you have a Triple Crown on the line, so there are all kinds of factors to it," Walden said of the situation.

WinStar and China Horse Club also co-own graded stakes winner Quip, whom they did start in the Preakness against Justify and watched finish last in the field of eight.

"It's different when you've won two out of three than when you've won one out of three," Walden said. "But at the same time, I do feel like you can't manufacture a Triple Crown. It's either going to happen or it's not. We'll see."

That expression, “manufacture a Triple Crown”, captures my concerns exactly.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Okay, just to be sure I understand your position… Once a horse has beaten a lot of horses in the Derby and Preakness, then it’s fine for the ownership to increase the horse’s chances of winning the TC by not entering a strong competitor they also own, whose trainer is lobbying for entry, and which would otherwise almost surely have been entered. In fact, not only is it “fine”, but for anyone to suggest otherwise is downright contemptible, drawing enough ire that many of us had to run to the Urban Dictionary to understand the insult. I hope I haven't misstated your position.

There’s some irony here. When California Chrome’s owner bitterly complained about how unfair it was that there were no rules restricting which horses could enter the Belmont, he was roundly laughed at. This year we have an ownership that’s actually in a position to exert some control over which other horses will show up to attempt to deny the TC bid. But no one else at Derby Trail seems to find that the least bit troublesome.

WinStar’s president, Elliot Walden, is at least wrestling with the decision, according to this article at Bloodhorse.com: https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...n-to-the-track

Audible, who finished a fast-closing third to Justify in the Kentucky Derby, is slated to work at Belmont Park May 25 for trainer Todd Pletcher. After that, Walden said they would have a conversation about the son of Into Mischief 's Belmont status.

"Obviously, you have a Triple Crown on the line, so there are all kinds of factors to it," Walden said of the situation.

WinStar and China Horse Club also co-own graded stakes winner Quip, whom they did start in the Preakness against Justify and watched finish last in the field of eight.

"It's different when you've won two out of three than when you've won one out of three," Walden said. "But at the same time, I do feel like you can't manufacture a Triple Crown. It's either going to happen or it's not. We'll see."

That expression, “manufacture a Triple Crown”, captures my concerns exactly.

With all due respect, you make some pretty questionable points. Where did Steve come even close to saying the number of horses a horse faced in earlier races makes it OK for it to face less horses in later races? He simply stated some facts from prior TC winners, ones that weren't overly scrutinized by the masses due to the lack of an internet prior to 1950. Then you conclude your post with a total skewing of what Walden said....he said you CAN'T manufacture a TC, yet you left CAN'T out of your quote. Sort of interesting....no?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

With all due respect, you make some pretty questionable points. Where did Steve come even close to saying the number of horses a horse faced in earlier races makes it OK for it to face less horses in later races?

IMO, he appeared to make that connection when he concluded his post with:

"Justify has already beaten 23 different horses in 2 legs and if he were to best probable newcomers Blended Citizen, Gronkowski, Restoring Hope and Bandua in the Belmont, the number swells to 27.

"So GTFO with the 'reduced competition' nonsense."

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Then you conclude your post with a total skewing of what Walden said....he said you CAN'T manufacture a TC, yet you left CAN'T out of your quote. Sort of interesting....no?

BTWind, I had already quoted Walden in full, and I had no intention of "skewing" the meaning when I wrote that final sentence.

How did you interpret what Walden wrote? Given the way it followed, "It's different when you've won two out of three than when you've won one out of three,", which seemed to be explaining why they're tempted to NOT run Audible, I interpreted "can't manufacture a TC" to mean 'you shouldn't try to manufacture a TC'. But I could certainly understand you're hearing it differently.

I'm also interested in how you feel about the central question. Do you have any misgivings at all about ownership conglomerates holding out horses merely to make the the TC more likely for the Derby/Preakness winner?

[Secretriat34]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I'm feeling that if Audible and Noble Indy are kept out of the Belmont in order to help Justify's chances, then there ought to be an asterisk next to Justify's TC, should he in fact win it versus the reduced competition.

HERE HERE..I SECOND THAT EMOTION

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A COLT HAD HIS CAREER TRUNCATED BY THE SAME OWNERSHIP GROUP TO MAKE ANOTHER OF THEIRS APPEAR BETTER THAN HE MIGHT REALLY BE.

THIS IS WRONG..IT IS GREED
AND IT DOES NOTHING FOR THE FANS OR THE SPORT BY FALSELY GIVING JUSTIY A CHANCE TO WIN THE TC,.

WRONG WRONG WRONG..

SHAME ON THE OWNERS FOR CHEATING THE SPORT IN THIS MANNER