There's no stars in racing? Is that right?

[Kasept]

Horses in the headlines of DRF this morning. But there aren't any stars in the game...

KIP DEVILLE: Back for the Poker..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104573.html

Also featured in Grening's report.. Benny the Bull, Driven By Success, Lime Rickey..


COMMENTATOR: Prepping for the Whitney..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104549.html


INDIAN BLESSING: Prepping for the A Gleam..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104587.html

Also featured in Anderson's report.. Obrigado (22nd stake start in last 24 outsings), Life is Sweet..


EINSTEIN: Looking for third surface Gr. I in a row..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104568.html

Also featured in the McGee piece.. International star Asiatic Boy makes his North American debut..


MUSIC NOTE: Part of the kooky 3 horse entry in the Phipps..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104590.html

[MisterB]

Evening ATTIRE was a star. Maybe the last one for a while.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

There's always going to be stars because someone has to win the races.

In some years the stars won't be very good in relation to the stars of other years.

In 1997, Skip Away ran 9 Beyers of 115 or greater - and capped off his year with a 6 length Breeders Cup Classic win with a 120 Beyer. He was defeated in the vote for Horse of the Year by Favorite Trick.

Skip Away was punished in the voting because he, Formal Gold, Will's Way, and Gentleman were taking turns beating each other in what possibly was the all-time deepest handicap division I've seen in my time.

Favorite Trick dominated his division by beating laughing stock competiton like Dawson's Legacy and Nationalore in the BC Juvie. Time Limit and Laydown in the Breeders Futurity. KO Punch and Jess M in the Hopeful. Case Dismissed in the Saratoga Special. Double Honor in the Bashford Manor.

Basically, the older male division was Adriana Lima, Gisele Bundchen, Karolina Kurkova, Heidy Klum etc. The 2yo male division was some pretty girl hanging out at Camp Fat.

Curlin goes his entire career and only runs one lifetime Beyer of 115 or better - yet he wins 2 horse of the year titles. Skip Away does it 9 times in a year and only wins about a third of his races that year.

Look at a horse like Einstein .. he's run 25 times, made over $2.6 million, and his career best Beyer is a 106. Distorted Humor ran just 5 times in 1997, his average Beyer was 111.00 - and he was only good enough to win 1 of those 5 races...the lone win coming in the prestegious Doug Salvatore Mile at Monmouth.

A lot of these divisional stars running now might be stars ... but they're really low rated stars compared to stars of past years. Obviously you have some big exceptions ... 'sup Rachel Alexandra. And hey, if Favorite Trick deserves a horse of the year title over Skip Away ... Rachel Alexandra deserves a nod over Ruffian.

[sdjcom]

I love to watch the stakes and graded horses and the different series, such as BC but when a horse wins for me he's a star in my book. The horses mentioned above are exceptional, and CT has their own star Researcher, whom i like for an upset @4-1 Sat at CD. there are plenty of horses we can make stars.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There's always going to be stars because someone has to win the races.

In some years the stars won't be very good in relation to the stars of other years.

In 1997, Skip Away ran 9 Beyers of 115 or greater - and capped off his year with a 6 length Breeders Cup Classic win with a 120 Beyer. He was defeated in the vote for Horse of the Year by Favorite Trick.

Skip Away was punished in the voting because he, Formal Gold, Will's Way, and Gentleman were taking turns beating each other in what possibly was the all-time deepest handicap division I've seen in my time.

Favorite Trick dominated his division by beating laughing stock competiton like Dawson's Legacy and Nationalore in the BC Juvie. Time Limit and Laydown in the Breeders Futurity. KO Punch and Jess M in the Hopeful. Case Dismissed in the Saratoga Special. Double Honor in the Bashford Manor.

Basically, the older male division was Adriana Lima, Gisele Bundchen, Karolina Kurkova, Heidy Klum etc. The 2yo male division was some pretty girl hanging out at Camp Fat.

Curlin goes his entire career and only runs one lifetime Beyer of 115 or better - yet he wins 2 horse of the year titles. Skip Away does it 9 times in a year and only wins about a third of his races that year.

Look at a horse like Einstein .. he's run 25 times, made over $2.6 million, and his career best Beyer is a 106. Distorted Humor ran just 5 times in 1997, his average Beyer was 111.00 - and he was only good enough to win 1 of those 5 races...the lone win coming in the prestegious Doug Salvatore Mile at Monmouth.

A lot of these divisional stars running now might be stars ... but they're really low rated stars compared to stars of past years. Obviously you have some big exceptions ... 'sup Rachel Alexandra. And hey, if Favorite Trick deserves a horse of the year title over Skip Away ... Rachel Alexandra deserves a nod over Ruffian.

This post is like a greatest hits album of DrugSianism.
Many s to you sir.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

A lot of these divisional stars running now might be stars ... but they're really low rated stars compared to stars of past years.

As was discussed yesterday on ATR, the 'past year's relation' is a seperate discussion. It's not a matter of valuating the current elite runners versus the elite runners of yesteryear, because this is today and that was yesterday.

Constantly harping that so and so pales in comparison to the Skip Aways of halcyon days of yore only serves to diminish the enjoyment of what we have right now. I don't get the eagerness to do that. And more importantly, it quells newer, younger fans enthusiasm if they constantly hear that the game sucks now by comparison to when "it was great and I was there".

No matter how good they look in their era, Derek Jeter ain't Al Kaline, Miguel Cabrera ain't Roberto Clemente and no one pitching is Bob Gibson, but that doesn't diminish the respective player's current roles as 'stars'.

We're doing ourselves a diservice if we go out of our way to pedestal salad day stars for what we have now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As was discussed yesterday on ATR, the 'past year's relation' is a seperate discussion. It's not a matter of valuating the current elite runners versus the elite runners of yesteryear, because this is today and that was yesterday.

Constantly harping that so and so pales in comparison to the Skip Aways of halcyon days of yore only serves to diminish the enjoyment of what we have right now. I don't get the eagerness to do that. And more importantly, it quells newer, younger fans enthusiasm if they constantly hear that the game sucks now by comparison to when "it was great and I was there".

No matter how good they look in their era, Derek Jeter ain't Al Kaline, Miguel Cabrera ain't Roberto Clemente and no one pitching is Bob Gibson, but that doesn't diminish the respective player's current roles as 'stars'.

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente and Jeter is likely ranked quite a bit higher historically at his position than Kaline is at his though I will give you Gibson though Randy Johnson while over the hill now probably has had a better overall carer than Gibson. Now if you said Grady Sizemore isnt Mickey Mantle or Ryan Howard isnt Lou Gehrig I would agree.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente and Jeter is likely ranked quite a bit higher historically at his position than Kaline is at his though I will give you Gibson though Randy Johnson while over the hill now probably has had a better overall carer than Gibson. Now if you said Grady Sizemore isnt Mickey Mantle or Ryan Howard isnt Lou Gehrig I would agree.

at least we have Hamels and Utley also!

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente and Jeter is likely ranked quite a bit higher historically at his position than Kaline is at his though I will give you Gibson though Randy Johnson while over the hill now probably has had a better overall carer than Gibson. Now if you said Grady Sizemore isnt Mickey Mantle or Ryan Howard isnt Lou Gehrig I would agree.

I ran out of nitro after the Cabrera is a better hitter than Clemente statement......

As you know I respect your knowledge, historical organization and strategic game savy especially in baseball but if your stirring some statistical drink that makes you believe that one of the purest hitters and fielders the game has ever known is somehow inferior to a 5 year .271 hitter we have to get you a mental status evaluation as I fear a screw has come very very loose. Really Chuck,gulp, Cabrera for Clemente..........please 'xplain this one further.

I would never challenge your horse sense, think you actually know quite a bit about hoops as does my famous neighbor who ghosts on the site from time to time but I think your a little over the top on Cabrera's upside.

[ddthetide]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente

have you completely lost your mind? Roberto was clutch!

i love Einstein! he just shows up and runs his guts out. does whatever he has to, to win. he's star that should be promoted as one.
we can remember the old days but try to root for the stars we have now. or try to make new stars.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As was discussed yesterday on ATR, the 'past year's relation' is a seperate discussion. It's not a matter of valuating the current elite runners versus the elite runners of yesteryear, because this is today and that was yesterday.

Oh boy.

Originally Posted by Kasept

Constantly harping that so and so pales in comparison to the Skip Aways of halcyon days of yore only serves to diminish the enjoyment of what we have right now.

Speak plain.

Pretending some of these horses are really good when they're not only serves to diminish the enjoyment of being right.

Originally Posted by Kasept

I don't get the eagerness to do that. And more importantly, it quells newer, younger fans enthusiasm if they constantly hear that the game sucks now by comparison to when "it was great and I was there".

If I wanted to be like that I'd be all like 'dude... if you think the last two divisions of 3yo males royally suck ... go back and look at the rats from '93'

Originally Posted by Kasept

No matter how good they look in their era, Derek Jeter ain't Al Kaline, Miguel Cabrera ain't Roberto Clemente and no one pitching is Bob Gibson, but that doesn't diminish the respective player's current roles as 'stars'.

I watch ESPN Classic and the MLB station every once and a while. The newer athletes are way better than the older ones as far as I can tell. My favorite is watching the place kickers in the old football games. Those guys suck.

Originally Posted by Kasept

We're doing ourselves a diservice if we go out of our way to pedestal salad day stars for what we have now.

If the whole point is to make us feel good about what we have today ... why not just pick the really bad stars from weak divisions of years past and compare todays stars with them?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As was discussed yesterday on ATR, the 'past year's relation' is a seperate discussion. It's not a matter of valuating the current elite runners versus the elite runners of yesteryear, because this is today and that was yesterday.

Constantly harping that so and so pales in comparison to the Skip Aways of halcyon days of yore only serves to diminish the enjoyment of what we have right now. I don't get the eagerness to do that. And more importantly, it quells newer, younger fans enthusiasm if they constantly hear that the game sucks now by comparison to when "it was great and I was there".

No matter how good they look in their era, Derek Jeter ain't Al Kaline, Miguel Cabrera ain't Roberto Clemente and no one pitching is Bob Gibson, but that doesn't diminish the respective player's current roles as 'stars'.

We're doing ourselves a diservice if we go out of our way to pedestal salad day stars for what we have now.

This is tremendously misguided. The supposed " stars " aren't bringing people to the track anyway. Now, if you want to argue if there were actually some good horses around, and they raced more than occasionally ( how exactly should anyone be excited by Kip Deville when he actually deviated from last year's ambitious three race schedule to make a rare fourth appearance in the Poker? ), as well as against each other, maybe we could generate some enthusiasm. However, the bottom line is that the appeal of substance is the game and that is what generates excitement....and what can make the game healthy. This is what we need to promote. What we don't need to do is promote by lying and pretending.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

However, the bottom line is that the appeal of substance is the game and that is what generates excitement....and what can make the game healthy. This is what we need to promote. What we don't need to do is promote by lying and pretending.

No one is lying or pretending. If the competition is balanced, albeit at a reduced level of quality as judged by the top performance valuations, than how is that not as much of an excitement generator as the competition level of an earlier era?

We're always reminded that it's the players that drive the game. Well, the mutuels are still returning as much or more as they ever have with the innovations of multi-horse and multi-race wagers. You could even argue that the excitement has been enhanced by those mutuel innovations and bonanza returns.

The horses we have are the horses we have. The esthetics haven't changed. Our view of the current generation versus previous only makes it 'feel' like they have.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Basically, the older male division was Adriana Lima, Gisele Bundchen, Karolina Kurkova, Heidy Klum etc. The 2yo male division was some pretty girl hanging out at Camp Fat.

I'm curious. That hot one legged chick you scored with from the 24 hour supermarket, is she in the former group of females, or is she hanging out at Camp Fat too?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I'm curious. That hot one legged chick you scored with from the 24 hour supermarket, is she in the former group of females, or is she hanging out at Camp Fat too?

By scored I assume you mean she rang up my frozen pizza and donuts?

[slotdirt]

Al Kaline or Roberto Clemente - depending on one's personal opinion - are still considered the two greatest right fielders of all-time. So in that regard, I would suggest both of those guys are much more highly regarded in their respective positions than is Jeter as a shortstop. Jeter's been a downright defensive liabilty - with all due respect - compared to the average major league shortstop for the vast majority of his career.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Skip Away was punished in the voting because he, Formal Gold, Will's Way, and Gentleman were taking turns beating each other in what possibly was the all-time deepest handicap division I've seen in my time.

I would vote for the 1988 season when you had Alysheba, Bet Twice, Lost Code, Gulch, Java Gold, Polish Navy, Cryptoclearance and others.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

That was just slightly before I started following racing seriously ... or could figure out how to tie my shoes.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

A lot of these divisional stars running now might be stars ... but they're really low rated stars compared to stars of past years. Obviously you have some big exceptions ... 'sup Rachel Alexandra. And hey, if Favorite Trick deserves a horse of the year title over Skip Away ... Rachel Alexandra deserves a nod over Ruffian.

Uggh.

Shades of Jay Hovdey.

...'sup Mr. Krone.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Uggh.

Shades of Jay Hovdey.

...'sup Mr. Krone.

Yeah - tell me all the 3-year-old fillies from the last 15 years who've had a better first half of their 3yo filly season than she has had. Perhaps Sillverbulletday .. but probably not.

And - she pretty much did it all for a trainer who losses about triple the takeout from a huge sample size.