Now does anyone still believe?...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Circular Quay gave some people chills: they've never seen a two year old do things like he did, with his pedigree,he'll run forever..etc...LOL

But so far, no one has responded to our pointing out this hypocrisy, Bold Ruler, so I have to assume that they know they don't have a leg to stand on.

saying a two year old is the best 'at this point' (which to me means compared to other two year olds) is imo far different than saying bernardini is an all time great. holding off on judgement til open co is met/defeated is hypocrisy?? i'd call it patience and learning from past experience.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by moodwalker

I sure wouldn't want to speak for Oracle, but I bet he would give him credit if the horse actually wins the BCC and HOTY.

And I will follow suit....

Now if Mayan King gets HOTY, I am going to just start following Nascar or something.

You people are acting like this is an attack on Bernardini, and that he has already won the whole kit-n-kaboodle.

2 races.

I think this stuff is a reaction to the Barbaro incident, with everyone wanting to replace him with "something special."

I didn't hear this last year about Flower Alley, because everyone knew that Afleet Alex could smoke him.

But in my opinion, Bernardini is currently a "Flower Alley 2, electric boogaloo" type of horse.

i think bernardini fans are a bit defensive, seeing every post not singing his praises as an attack..fact remains i haven't seen one post critical of the horse!! not one. however, i have seen posts saying withhold judgement on the horse as to his position in history. yes, everyone is saying he ran a heck of a race. two actually. and everyone seems eager to see more of him. but there still seems to be a problem for some reason.

[Danzig]

i know i personally haven't agreed that it was a weak field....many others have pointed out (correctly) that he didn't beat the best of this years crop in this race.
i haven't seen any criticisms of the horse. not many on the field he faced. i think most of it is directed to the hysteria building around bernardini.

yes, we enjoyed his race. he looked really, really good and won it easily.

it's just most of us aren't yet saying he's the reincarnation of citation. nor are we ready to concede a win in open company. anyone who has watched this sport for very long knows how hard it can be for a horse to step up the next level. hell, i hope he does it. it'd be great to see. but i'm certainly not going to offer any guarantee on it happening!

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

saying a two year old is the best 'at this point' (which to me means compared to other two year olds) is imo far different than saying bernardini is an all time great. holding off on judgement til open co is met/defeated is hypocrisy?? i'd call it patience and learning from past experience.

That is absolutely fair, but it is frustrating that I am being attacked because I love Bernardini. Please go back and read any/some/all of my posts and tell me exactly where I compared Bernardini to ANY great horse. I think it is way too premature (as I have stated numerous times), but I think he's got scary ability. Who knows what's going to happen? I'm just excited about Bernardini's potential.

That being said, I take offense at snide comments that I love the horse so much that I can't be unbiased. Personally, I think some people are bending over backwards to not give Bernardini any credit for anything (and I don't mean those people who are saying "hold on, he's not great yet") but I don't personally attack them.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Betsy

That is absolutely fair, but it is frustrating that I am being attacked because I love Bernardini. Please go back and read any/some/all of my posts and tell me exactly where I compared Bernardini to ANY great horse. I think it is way too premature (as I have stated numerous times), but I think he's got scary ability. Who knows what's going to happen? I'm just excited about Bernardini's potential.

That being said, I take offense at snide comments that I love the horse so much that I can't be unbiased. Personally, I think some people are bending over backwards to not give Bernardini any credit for anything (and I don't mean those people who are saying "hold on, he's not great yet") but I don't personally attack them.

betsy, you may have not made any outlandish claims, but you've also hitched your horse to bolds wagon with posts like the one above regarding exposing hypocrites, and he can't say the same about stuff he's writing! i haven't really seen any snide comments towards you. maybe you're looking for more than is there?? also, haven't seen anyone not giving credit to bernardini for what he's done...

[Betsy]

Danzig, I was calling out one person in particular, Oracle, since he made a point of telling me that he doesn't give a fig (and that's the nice way of putting it) what I say. That was uncalled for and I wasn't about to back down. I agree your comments about calling a 2 year old and 3 year old great are fair, I still think Oracle is a hypocrite. The principal is still the same - he's allowed to jump through the moon because of 2 races and he gets on my case simply because I don't agree with him that Bernardini is nothing particularly special yet? Don't worry, though - I won't be engaging in any more "debates" with him since it's not fair to turn something personal into a board war.

Originally Posted by Betsy

Danzig, I was calling out one person in particular, Oracle, since he made a point of telling me that he doesn't give a fig (and that's the nice way of putting it) what I say. That was uncalled for and I wasn't about to back down. I agree your comments about calling a 2 year old and 3 year old great are fair, I still think Oracle is a hypocrite. The principal is still the same - he's allowed to jump through the moon because of 2 races and he gets on my case simply because I don't agree with him that Bernardini is nothing particularly special yet? Don't worry, though - I won't be engaging in any more "debates" with him since it's not fair to turn something personal into a board war.

Betsy, lighten up. I never got personal with you, you started with me by talking about my Preakness comments and then just now calling me a hypocrite, I will say it again, I don't care.
yeah, I praised him after his Preakeness, I sure did. But I sure didnt call him the greatest Tbred ever born or say he would be HOY. Thats what many on this thread seem to imply. That does not make me a hypocrite, rather it makes me a guy who doubts that this horse who is beating a bad group(although doing it nicely and fast and in style) of 3 Yo's is ready to tackle older horses who are battle hardened with serious motors.
You seem to take that personally. Thats too bad, its not meant to be personal.

Betsy i also posted the reason that I have my doubts. Watch the replay of yesterday's Amsterdam but before you do read the article that was on the front page of yesterday's DRf in which he spoke about how ready Songster was. It was an embarassment. The horse was dead short and thats that. Guys like pletcher don't get horses like that beat. You want me to have faith in this guy to take Bernadini to the promised land, well I wish him luck but have serious doubts about that.

Originally Posted by oracle80

And Joel do you still believe that Lady Of venice is the greatest three year old grass filly?

Yes, she is easily the best 3YO filly in the country....Wait a While isn't even close IMO....Lady of Venice was good enough to be the fave against her more accomplished elders in a Gr. I this past weekend and she broke slow and had a wide trip and only got beat a length in the end by a mare who was good enough to win the Gr. I Beverly D. over yielding grass over some of the best grass mares in the world at ARL......Yeah, no doubt to me that LOV is the best American 3YO turf filly.....Now, she couldn't beat any of the top 3YO fillies in Europe IMO, but U.S. - she is better than Attima and Wait a While...

Wait for the Gr. I Queen Elizabeth at KEE in a few months and we'll see....Actually, lets just have a friendly wager between the two of us, shall we?

Whenever they face each other for the first time (bound to happen soon), I'll take LOV to finish better than Wait a While...say 100 bucks.....Are you in?

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Yes, she is easily the best 3YO filly in the country....Wait a While isn't even close IMO....Lady of Venice was good enough to be the fave against her more accomplished elders in a Gr. I this past weekend and she broke slow and had a wide trip and only got beat a length in the end by a mare who was good enough to win the Gr. I Beverly D. over yielding grass over some of the best grass mares in the world at ARL......Yeah, no doubt to me that LOV is the best American 3YO turf filly.....Now, she couldn't beat any of the top 3YO fillies in Europe IMO, but U.S. - she is better than Attima and Wait a While...

Wait for the Gr. I Queen Elizabeth at KEE in a few months and we'll see....Actually, lets just have a friendly wager between the two of us, shall we?

Whenever they face each other for the first time (bound to happen soon), I'll take LOV to finish better than Wait a While...say 100 bucks.....Are you in?

I
l will be in if they both go but I really have to see how they both would run in their next preps. Bounces and that sort of thing. I think Venice is very overrated, she had no excuse.

[JJP]

Lady of Venice was arguably the best horse in the Diana. She was 3 wide on both turns while horses like Angara, Argentina and My Typhoon were saving ground. Still she was only beaten about a length. Going 3 wide on Saratoga's tight turns pretty much insures you have little chance to win.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Betsy, lighten up. I never got personal with you, you started with me by talking about my Preakness comments and then just now calling me a hypocrite, I will say it again, I don't care.
yeah, I praised him after his Preakeness, I sure did. But I sure didnt call him the greatest Tbred ever born or say he would be HOY. Thats what many on this thread seem to imply. That does not make me a hypocrite, rather it makes me a guy who doubts that this horse who is beating a bad group(although doing it nicely and fast and in style) of 3 Yo's is ready to tackle older horses who are battle hardened with serious motors.
You seem to take that personally. Thats too bad, its not meant to be personal.

I'm sorry for the miscommunication, Oracle. It's difficult over the internet to determine what is or is not personal. I personally think it's too early to judge Bernardini anything other than an extremely talented horse who may prove to be great; frankly, I have no desire to make such claims because I just want to enjoy him now. Greatness has to be proved on the track and I hope he does it. I do not wish to see this horse join a long list of racehorses who never fulfilled their potential. I think does have "great" potential. I'm not frustrated at those who think Bernardini has more to prove (which is true); I'm frustrated at those who want to denigrate his performances by the usual "who'd he beat" kind of thing. He beat some nice (ok, not great horses, obviously) in a manner that most overwhelming favorites do not do to their outmatched competition.

Again, I'm willing to move on and I apologize if I misinterpreted your comments

Originally Posted by Betsy

I'm sorry for the miscommunication, Oracle. It's difficult over the internet to determine what is or is not personal. I personally think it's too early to judge Bernardini anything other than an extremely talented horse who may prove to be great; frankly, I have no desire to make such claims because I just want to enjoy him now. Greatness has to be proved on the track and I hope he does it. I do not wish to see this horse join a long list of racehorses who never fulfilled their potential. I think does have "great" potential. I'm not frustrated at those who think Bernardini has more to prove (which is true); I'm frustrated at those who want to denigrate his performances by the usual "who'd he beat" kind of thing. He beat some nice (ok, not great horses, obviously) in a manner that most overwhelming favorites do not do to their outmatched competition.

Again, I'm willing to move on and I apologize if I misinterpreted your comments

So bascially what you are saying is that you and I are in 100% total agreement over the entire thing. Because everything you just said I agree with 100%.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by JJP

Lady of Venice was arguably the best horse in the Diana. She was 3 wide on both turns while horses like Angara, Argentina and My Typhoon were saving ground. Still she was only beaten about a length. Going 3 wide on Saratoga's tight turns pretty much insures you have little chance to win.

On the other hand I believe she was getting eight pounds from everyone, so you have to factor that in as well.
I thought she was way overbet but ran a very nice race and showed she's ready to compete with the very best turf females.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by JJP

Lady of Venice was arguably the best horse in the Diana. She was 3 wide on both turns while horses like Angara, Argentina and My Typhoon were saving ground. Still she was only beaten about a length. Going 3 wide on Saratoga's tight turns pretty much insures you have little chance to win.

I also think Lady of Venice was too close on the yielding turf, it killed her finish.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by oracle80

So bascially what you are saying is that you and I are in 100% total agreement over the entire thing. Because everything you just said I agree with 100%.

Umm, Yeah, LOL I guess so. I'm going to reread your posts (and the Bernardini threads as a matter of fact) again to see if possibly got defensive for no reason. I still think some people (not necessarily here) are being overly tough on Bernardini, but it's not productive to continue to argue over something that really is not all that serious

[slotdirt]

“He is better than Ghostzapper and Pleasantly Perfect” (No doubt, remember he is just a 3yr old and getting better, I can't imagine how good he will be by BC Classic time- remember he is an AP Indy)

I haven't had the chance to completely go through this thread, but I hope somebody's pointed out to boldruler that not all AP Indy's improve with age. To wit:

Pulpit - six starts to three, sire of more fragile horses than I can count
Stephen got Even - won a single race as a 4YO, started nary 11 times in his career
Friends Lake - seven starts to three, never heard from again after Florida Derby win
A P Valentine - 2YO success, retired to stud in....TEXAS!

Anyway, it's complete fallacy that just because horses like Mineshaft and Congrats had pretty good careers after the age of three that all AP Indy's improve with age. In fact, if you look at the sons of sons of AP Indy, their careers are even shorter (Stevie Wonderboy, Tapit). Shoot, it's not like Seattle Slew was exactly a sound horse either.

Originally Posted by slotdirt

“He is better than Ghostzapper and Pleasantly Perfect” (No doubt, remember he is just a 3yr old and getting better, I can't imagine how good he will be by BC Classic time- remember he is an AP Indy)

I haven't had the chance to completely go through this thread, but I hope somebody's pointed out to boldruler that not all AP Indy's improve with age. To wit:

Pulpit - six starts to three, sire of more fragile horses than I can count
Stephen got Even - won a single race as a 4YO, started nary 11 times in his career
Friends Lake - seven starts to three, never heard from again after Florida Derby win
A P Valentine - 2YO success, retired to stud in....TEXAS!

Anyway, it's complete fallacy that just because horses like Mineshaft and Congrats had pretty good careers after the age of three that all AP Indy's improve with age. In fact, if you look at the sons of sons of AP Indy, their careers are even shorter (Stevie Wonderboy, Tapit). Shoot, it's not like Seattle Slew was exactly a sound horse either.

You can find exceptions to any rule. The general belief is that AP Indy's take longer to get going. This one clearly is getting better each race. He is destroying good horses, with very fast figures, with little effort.

[slotdirt]

By the way, who does what's her face the pedigree expert say is the best bred horse in training right now? I know she named Smuggler as the best bred horse last year, but don't know if that's changed.

Horses like Bernadini are rare treats to be enjoyed. I just think that assuming he will beat older horses is a little premature. I do think that his light race schedule and easy wins bode well for FUTURE succcess as an older horse, because hes not wrung out. I'm just not sure that it translates to immediate success against older runners.