3/28 (GP): Florida Derby (G1); Swale (G2); Appleton (G3)

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by justindew

However, if your analysis of him looking less than 100% is on the money, then I'd have to agree that pushing on is a bad decision. I had heard he looked like a million bucks.

You heard he looked like a million bucks? I strongly suggest you stop taking recommendations of horse appearence from whoever told you that.

Originally Posted by prudery

Nice catch on Dunkirk's appearance---it has not been brought up much .

I thought he looked like a skinny filly coming down the stretch, and Kate Moss when they hosed him down--too bloody frail and tucked up .

Not an animal you would expect to have the physical reserves/resources to be bound for the classics ...

Thank you prudery... That's a nice compliment coming from an actual judge of horseflesh.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ELA

Yes, I'll agree. You can look to Big Brown, Curlin, etc. OK. So, what are they going to do here, run again to get in? Which race? I just don't see it. I think people will debate it all day, but the bottom line is that he didn't do enough to get in. With Big Brown, simply put, he won it so it was clear cut. Curlin -- he had a G3 and a G2 in his last two starts before the Derby.

Regardless, I see your point. I just don't see Dunkirk doing anything but sitting on the bubble and waiting. If he gets in, sure he'll run, but I don't see it being the ideal, far from it.

Eric

after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

[Danzig]

i think he could have expressed his obvious disappointment in a better way than pointing fingers at the surface. no doubt he was incredibly down, not only did he lose the fla derby, he pretty much lost the kentucky derby as well. if he really thought this horse could win THAT race, then the blow was far more serious than getting a second in a gr 1. but he played his hand-perhaps poorly? ultimately, he has to take the blame, he's the one who chose the venue-and chose not to run europe.

maybe the withers and then preakness?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

I agree.

[robfla]

Originally Posted by Kasept

You heard he looked like a million bucks? I strongly suggest you stop taking recommendations of horse appearAnce from whoever told you that.

I am going to guess that "looking like a million bucks" is NOT a good thing when the purchase price was 3.7mm

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

That was a Vista result?

I guess I just get a chuckle out of people being outraged that someone reacted negatively to something like watching their chances of going to the Derby probably ended. I'll tell you one thing, I'm glad there isn't a camera on me when I lose a photo for a big score or get DQ'd. I'm sure we all are.

Who's outraged? I'm amused.

[fpsoxfan]

After reading through this thread, I went to espn.com and watch the race again. IMO the better horse won this race fair and square. Dunkirk made a huge move and Quality Road who rated nicely behind the speed just pulled away from him. Souped up track or not Quality Road is just a better horse at this point in time. I really don't understand how this track could've been unfair to Dunkirk. As far as Pletcher being a bit rude...whatever. It's like a coach blaming the refs/umps for losing a game. You're emotional/frustrated and later realize you shouldn't of said it. How about Jimmy Jerkens? It sure is nice to see him go to the big show.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

Dutrow's only excuse after the Belmont was "no excuse". He went to the barn and sulked by himself. Initially he took a shot at Desormeaux but later retracted. I have no problem with that, I'd rather hear that than "Mr. Microsoft" blaming the track superintendent when the truth was he got run off his feet by a BETTER HORSE.

Originally Posted by Kasept

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

This might be your all time best analogy- I laughed

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Run off his feet? I must have watched a different race. One more time, I'm not excusing the whining. I think it was poor judgement on his part. But, he was right and he was frustrated in the heat of the moment. Don't we all say things we regret during those times, right or wrong?

Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.


Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by philcski

Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.


Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

[justindew]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by justindew

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

I'm not sure he had to re-break. He was just gliding along when Dunkirk made his move. It was obvious that Johnny V. knew he still had a ton of horse coming around the turn. He was looking around for Dunkirk and was waiting to push the button on this horse.

[Bobby Fischer]

that track couldn't have been much better for a speed horse

there shouldn't be any debate about that. It was fast and horses were lasting.


Did they soup it up for Saturday? No. It was this bad on Friday. I didn't even check Wed or Thurs...

Quality Road ran a huge race and won. There is nothing whatsoever to take away from him. You can come up with fantasy tracks and fantasy trips, but you have to give credit to the horse who ran the actual race, when they run so great.
Dunkirk ran a huge race and happened to lose. He had to make a sustained move to tackle maybe the best rival, after that one had a dream trip and dream track, and he only lost by a couple lengths. What a great race that was.

The top two IMO both had the best 1 1/16th+ dirt preps we've had this year.
I don't know that I Want Revenge or Friesan Fire could have beaten them on a mythical "fair track".

[Travis Stone]

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'll remember your amusement now when someone criticizes one of the "untouchable trainers" in the future.

Who's cornered the market on playing both sides of the fence better than you?

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

Correct.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

At least we have more than one interesting horse to debate this year!

(although, like Phil said, having a pace advantage is ideal and why I think Quality Road is the better horse )

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by justindew

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

At least we have more than one interesting horse to debate this year!

I said this last night... this year is more exciting than anything last year produced.