Horse of the Year?

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Or any other horse for that matter in 2008. That is one of many compelling reasons why Big Brown should and in my opinion will win HOY.

Better than Commentator's Whitney?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Better than Commentator's Whitney?

Exactly. Of course Big Brown's races looked good. He wasn't facing anything, especially in Florida. Big Brown's Florida Derby didn't LOOK any better than Commentator's Whitney and certainly didn't LOOK any better than Commentator's Mass Cap. They didn't LOOK better than Proud Spell's Ky Oaks or Music Note's CCA Oaks or her Gazelle or Indian Blessing's Test or Ventura's BC F/M Sprint or Goldikova's BC Mile.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Better than Commentator's Whitney?

I just watched the Whitney again. Very nice race for Commentator. He had complete control wire to wire and still had something in the tank. The reason I think Big Brown was equally impressive if not better at FL and definately better in the KY was the outside post wins. 20 horses entered in KY make that even more eyepopping.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Exactly. Of course Big Brown's races looked good. He wasn't facing anything, especially in Florida. Big Brown's Florida Derby didn't LOOK any better than Commentator's Whitney and certainly didn't LOOK any better than Commentator's Mass Cap. They didn't LOOK better than Proud Spell's Ky Oaks or Music Note's CCA Oaks or her Gazelle or Indian Blessing's Test or Ventura's BC F/M Sprint or Goldikova's BC Mile.

I disagree. FL Derby Big Brown did face some talent. Hey Bern and Ilysium Fields were very good horses in April. He also destroyed the Belmont winner in that race.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I disagree. FL Derby Big Brown did face some talent. Hey Bern and Ilysium Fields were very good horses in April. He also destroyed the Belmont winner in that race.

Were you hired as a witness for the prosecutor or the defense? You weaken your argument on Big Brown's behalf by the mere mention of Hey Bryn and Ilysium Fields in the same sentence with the words "good horses". You completly destroy your argument by calling them VERY good horses.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Were you hired as a witness for the prosecutor or the defense? You weaken your argument on Big Brown's behalf by the mere mention of Hey Bryn and Ilysium Fields in the same sentence with the words "good horses". You completly destroy your argument by calling them VERY good horses.

And the Belmont winner is about the most awful horse to win a classic race in quite some time, as far as I can recall, so I don't think that helps either.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Gun to your head, who wins: Da' Tara, or Commendable?

Well luckily for me, Commendable is just at the very beginning of my caring about horse racing....

But gun to my head I'm wheeling both underneath Jazil.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Were you hired as a witness for the prosecutor or the defense? You weaken your argument on Big Brown's behalf by the mere mention of Hey Bryn and Ilysium Fields in the same sentence with the words "good horses". You completly destroy your argument by calling them VERY good horses.

I said in April they were very good horses. I stand by that. Not very good as in past years but we are talking about 2008. And in April 2008 they were amonst the contenders for the Derby. To your point, neither one did anything special beyond that.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well luckily for me, Commendable is just at the very beginning of my caring about horse racing....

But gun to my head I'm wheeling both underneath Jazil.

Jazil was underrated and not a slouch by any stretch.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I said in April they were very good horses. I stand by that. Not very good as in past years but we are talking about 2008. And in April 2008 they were amonst the contenders for the Derby. To your point, neither one did anything special beyond that.

Just because you said it in April didn't mean it was true then. I said Galloping Grocer was going to win the TC after his first couple of races. After a few more, I realized he was garbage and admitted as much. If you can't learn to adjust your opinion as more and more evidence pours in, your arguments really will have no merit because you will always be speaking from the perspective of trying to prove yourself right instead of objectively looking at things.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What are the other "compelling reasons" to vote for Big Brown? If there are non-compelling reasons, please add them, too.

He beat everything he faced. I guess my bias throws out the Belmont because he was pulled up and arguably had several other things going on including an injured hoof. Clearly his foot injury factored into
his just wins, but he still did it. Big Brown also faced the most horses in the history of the TC during those five weeks. His KY Derby was more impressive than Barbaro's even though Barbaro was a comparatively faster horse.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Just because you said it in April didn't mean it was true then. I said Galloping Grocer was going to win the TC after his first couple of races. After a few more, I realized he was garbage and admitted as much. If you can't learn to adjust your opinion as more and more evidence pours in, your arguments really will have no merit because you will always be speaking from the perspective of trying to prove yourself right instead of objectively looking at things.

I understand your points. I can still be correct in my statement based on when I was referring too. Hey Bern was very good in April and stunk by June. That happens to many horses including GG. Ilysium Fields got injured and we will never know but he was a very good horse in April.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Jazil was underrated and not a slouch by any stretch.

Strangely enough, I kind of agree.

But I'm willing to freely admit that my thinking may be a product of the fact that I always liked Jazil from the beginning, rather than a rational, evidence-based conclusion...

...since he kind of wasn't actually that good in the big picture.

He was a neat horse who was good for what he was good for, and he was fortunate to have run a couple of decent races and to mostly inherit a Belmont Stakes in which it seemed like he was the only 12-furlong runner in the field anyway. I liked his Derby better.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You're digging yourself into a real deep hole now.

As a three year old Jazil won the Belmont, placed 4th in one of the most KY Derbys in this decade, and finished 2nd in the Wood Memorial. He also was 2nd in an Allowance race. How is that a slouch?

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Strangely enough, I kind of agree.

.

How is agreeing with me strange?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

How is agreeing with me strange?

Less to do with you than the fact that I made a Jazil joke and actually didn't mean it.

Though I do disagree with your entire premise in this thread, but I don't have anything to add.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I have no energy for a discussion about jazil's overall quality, but in my opinion, he stunk. Where he his good race?

Hey Bern sunk in April also. And Elysium Fields ran a good race a bad one and we haven't seen him since. You're extremely biased in regards to Big brown, which makes discussing stuff about him nearly impossible. But, he has no chance at winning the award. Zero..

Ouch! I'd like to think I bring a high level of energy to the Big Brown discussion.

[TheSpyder]

I for one cannot wait until this discussion is over. So much time and print wasted about a bunch of bad horses. Frankly, who cares. The all sucked. I just hope to God that 2009 will bring something special.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I for one cannot wait until this discussion is over. So much time and print wasted about a bunch of bad horses. Frankly, who cares. The all sucked. I just hope to God that 2009 will bring something special.

I'VE GOT A GOOD FEELING!

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I for one cannot wait until this discussion is over. So much time and print wasted about a bunch of bad horses. Frankly, who cares. The all sucked. I just hope to God that 2009 will bring something special.

"They all sucked" Nice contribuition. Hardly!