Big $ MTH "uber meet" experiment moving forward

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Same way they got there?

Hi we are back let me have my stalls? Hollywood Park already is the home fifty horse entire race day programs

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

In some respects, my reaction was the same as NTamm when I read this in the Bloodhorse article. Given the handle necessary to support these purse levels, if they don't do that much, it would not surprise me to see the politicians simply say that the game can't sustain itself, so let's get out of the racing business.

Right, or I'd be afraid their attitude would be, the hell with them, let them fight for slots, go through the motions because after all we're fighting a beast that's even closer (PHA).

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

In some respects, my reaction was the same as NTamm when I read this in the Bloodhorse article. Given the handle necessary to support these purse levels, if they don't do that much, it would not surprise me to see the politicians simply say that the game can't sustain itself, so let's get out of the racing business.

I dont know that this is the best way to accomplish that goal. hell they could have just let the status quo stand and they would have more ammo to close the thing down. As i said before handicapping pols especially in a broke state like NJ is impossible

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

So you dont think a trainer with 20 to 50 stalls is going to be concerned to leave town and support a rival meet?

Like I said what are they going to do? This is 2010 and stalls at NYRA arent golden anymore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Hi we are back let me have my stalls? Hollywood Park already is the home fifty horse entire race day programs

Exactly. The tracks are now the beggars. They can't turn away guys who want to come when they have empty stalls. One thing that the advent of supertrainers and slot tracks has done is lessen the importance of stalls at an individual track. CD used to get 4000 applications for 1500 stalls. They had empties last fall. NY has lots of empty stalls this winter. Keeneland is never full. Guys from KY shipped to delaware last June/July and they had plenty of stalls to accomodate them. CA tracks have no leg to stand on in refusing trainers stalls.

[freddymo]

I understand all your points and they make perfect sense..but life is a circle you will have to see the same guy on HIS way up.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I understand all your points and they make perfect sense..but life is a circle you will have to see the same guy on HIS way up.

What guy are you referring to? you have lost me

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What guy are you referring to? you have lost me

Racing sec or your rabbi at the track who makes you practicing your trade happen.. Chuck you are suggesting that a guy with 20 horses can come and go at a rival track without any issue...We all know that Pletcher and Ass are free to do whatever they want..But if you had 20 stabled at Belmont and wanted to go race a few this summer at Monmouth instead of SPA that the track has zero recourse

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Racing sec or your rabbi at the track who makes you practicing your trade happen.. Chuck you are suggesting that a guy with 20 horses can come and go at a rival track without any issue...We all know that Pletcher and Ass are free to do whatever they want..But if you had 20 stabled at Belmont and wanted to go race a few this summer at Monmouth instead of SPA that the track has zero recourse

Will they get pissed? Probably but what are they going to do? Kick him out? How does that help them when they need him? Sciacca is a not a great example because he runs his horses as much or more than anyone. Check out the NY guys that ship to Philly. Everyday there are NY horses there. The truth is that if trainers dont take advantage of big pots it doesnt matter what the tracks want to do with them, they will go out of business.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Will they get pissed? Probably but what are they going to do? Kick him out? How does that help them when they need him? Sciacca is a not a great example because he runs his horses as much or more than anyone. Check out the NY guys that ship to Philly. Everyday there are NY horses there. The truth is that if trainers dont take advantage of big pots it doesnt matter what the tracks want to do with them, they will go out of business.

I appreciate your input I think it is more complicated

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I appreciate your input I think it is more complicated

Anytime freddy

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Anytime freddy

One thing I am sure of the smallish NJ based stable and owner can not race in NJ anymore.. Pa just got more friends

except the 21 days they have set aside for the NJ bred slugs.. BTW this is a long term good thing

[freddymo]

My buddy bought a couple of stallions in NJ a few years back hoping to bred and make a few bucks if NJ turned the corner...Not exactly a good call

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Scav

Woobine will be fine, 75k maidens and there is even more money being put into the kiddy there. Nowhere in North America will you find that unless you have a PA bred!

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Scav

With those types of purses, you are going to see some insane claiming races. you will see 50k claimers being run for 15k because there will be a 50k pot attached to it.

While I am sure we would look for spots there, I am guessing we would take the low lying fruit at Philly

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They will be effected somewhat but the reality of Monmouth is that the big guys are going to run a lot of thier 'A' string horses there which may make the races really tough. A lot of the midwest guys Pat Pope brings in wont have the horses to win a lot there. The MD guys dont have the stock either. I really think NY get hurt the worst simply because no track has less "contorl" over their horses or trainers than they do. Money talks and if given the choice of an 80k or a 45k purse NY is going to lose. Lets face it there are a handful of trainers who are going to win the lionshare of the money at monmouth. the claiming guys will be dropping hard and the usual suspects will dominate the maiden and allowance ranks. An 80k purse sounds great but if you cant hit the board why bother?

Just listened to Kulina on ATR. Nickels will run for $30k, which would lend itself to drop $10-20k types in- however he is going to write conditioned claimers that would prohibit entry of those that have started for $10k or more in the last 12 months in a $5k race, or $20k in a $12.5k race, etc. Said he borrowed the idea from harness racing, sounds like a very good idea given the purse structure to balance for both the bettors and the trainers/owners.

Originally Posted by freddymo

My buddy bought a couple of stallions in NJ a few years back hoping to bred and make a few bucks if NJ turned the corner...Not exactly a good call

Might be if this idea works. J breds are running for $80k maidens. You win one race and you're profitable.

The more I hear about this plan the more I like it and think it might actually work. I know that I will focus all of my wagering on Monmouth Park this summer and hope that others do too.

[freddymo]

As a fan, I think you have to love the concept. Not crazy about 5 claimer races at all.. I thought the point was attract quality horses that were fast.. You are betting MP because you like 5 claimers? I would guess they will only card 2 or 3 lower level claimers a weekend HOPEFULLY

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Will they get pissed? Probably but what are they going to do? Kick him out? How does that help them when they need him? Sciacca is a not a great example because he runs his horses as much or more than anyone. Check out the NY guys that ship to Philly. Everyday there are NY horses there. The truth is that if trainers dont take advantage of big pots it doesnt matter what the tracks want to do with them, they will go out of business.

My guess is that the racing office in NY is going to keep tabs on who is shipping out of town and use Saratoga stalls as an inducement to have guys stay at home during (so as to protect) the Belmont spring meet. For example, the guy who had 18 stalls at Saratoga in 2009 might only get 10 stalls if he frequents the Jersey shore during the spring. My experience is that owners want to see their horses while they are in Saratoga, and trainers often have to juggle various competing interests given the limited stalls they have here.

If we were talking stalls in NY now, you are correct, it would be meaningless. But let's not forget that for the last few years, there haven't been enough stalls at Belmont from April - November (once the grass season begins), and that situation will be exacerbated if NYRA closes Aqueduct for training. There will be more horses heading to the Oklahoma for off-season training as it is.

[Buckpasser]

....Not only will those restrictions allow local horsemen to compete, but the purse in the race will also reward successful trainers who will be facing far fewer opportunities to race this year while still maintaining the same amount of expenses. In addition, Monmouth plans to pay a portion of purse money back to last place, though the exact amount has yet to be determined, Kulina said.

.....To get the breeding industry's support, Monmouth officials committed to carding an average of 2 1/2 races restricted to New Jersey-bred horses every day - or approximately 175 races over the two Monmouth meets, compared with 229 races restricted to Jersey-breds last year. ...... have focused on the track's potential to thrill racing fans and bettors by providing full fields of top-class horses, but the commitment to the restricted races appears to contradict that philosophy.

http://drf.com/news/article/111337.html

The racing dates will be interesting to watch, competing against 'toga and Del Mar and other tracks

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

My guess is that the racing office in NY is going to keep tabs on who is shipping out of town and use Saratoga stalls as an inducement to have guys stay at home during (so as to protect) the Belmont spring meet. For example, the guy who had 18 stalls at Saratoga in 2009 might only get 10 stalls if he frequents the Jersey shore during the spring. My experience is that owners want to see their horses while they are in Saratoga, and trainers often have to juggle various competing interests given the limited stalls they have here.

If we were talking stalls in NY now, you are correct, it would be meaningless. But let's not forget that for the last few years, there haven't been enough stalls at Belmont from April - November (once the grass season begins), and that situation will be exacerbated if NYRA closes Aqueduct for training. There will be more horses heading to the Oklahoma for off-season training as it is.

I suppose they could do that but the thing is more guys may choose to split the stable between Saratoga and Belmont during july/Aug and ship the ones stabled at Belmont to Mth to run during the Saratoga meet. Hell guys have already been doing that without huge purses ay Mth. The truth is that holding smaller trainers under their thumb wont accomplish all that much. Many of them have NYbreds as the majority of their horses and will run in NY regardless. The 7 or 8 outfits with all the good horses in NY are mostly already split with Monmouth and they know that NYRA cant really do anything to them. Remember NY has traditionally closed Aqu for training during the Saratoga season already.