Now I Have Zero Respect Left for Shirreffs

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He wasn't exactly a superstar ( and he was one of my personal favorites ). What were his big wins....the Queen's County and a three horse blanket finish in the Widener?

He won the Suburban Also

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by kgar311

??? Wasnt Lady's Secret beating up on the boys all year long in '86

As was pointed out, no she wasn't beating up on them all year. She beat them once and ran a couple of other decent races against them but make no mistake about it.....if Precisionist or Turkoman win the Classic, they win HOY. Lady's Secret won it because Skywalker won the Classic.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

As was pointed out, no she wasn't beating up on them all year. She beat them once and ran a couple of other decent races against them but make no mistake about it.....if Precisionist or Turkoman win the Classic, they win HOY. Lady's Secret won it because Skywalker won the Classic.

I think winning the Whitney by 5 is beating up the the boys.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by kgar311

I think winning the Whitney by 5 is beating up the the boys.

Apparently, you forgot that the statement you made was beating up on them ALL YEAR. Beating up on them in one race is not beating up on them all year. At least I don't think so. I'm no expert though so I could be wrong.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Apparently, you forgot that the statement you made was beating up on them ALL YEAR. Beating up on them in one race is not beating up on them all year. At least I don't think so. I'm no expert though so I could be wrong.

She was, but that alone is a KNOCK OUT

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by kgar311

She was, but that alone is a KNOCK OUT

Ok. If beating up on them all year is winning one race and losing the rest, I stand corrected. And I'd like to officially change my selection for 3yo champion to Da Tara since, according to this way of thinking, he beat up on the 3yo division all year.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Ok. If beating up on them all year is winning one race and losing the rest, I stand corrected. And I'd like to officially change my selection for 3yo champion to Da Tara since, according to this way of thinking, he beat up on the 3yo division all year.

I agree Da Tara for 3yo champ and HOY!!! Cuz he went 10 for 15 this year and won 8 grade 1s just like the Iron Lady!

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If according to his own words, the risk is not worth the reward......then he shouldn't receive the reward. Come on.

I agree. So if Zenaytta isn't HOY, and Curlin isn't HOY, there is only one other logical choice. And that award goes to _____ ____________

I didn't say it.

[kgar311]

Lets just go back to your original post where you lumped Lady's Secret in with Azeri who never stepped out of her division. Just calling the comparison to her and the latter 2 ludicris. She actually stepped out of her division and showed up every time.
All Zenyatta had to do was run third in the classic and shes HOY.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by kgar311

...with Azeri who never stepped out of her division.

False statement

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Lets just go back to your original post where you lumped Lady's Secret in with Azeri who never stepped out of her division. Just calling the comparison to her and the latter 2 ludicris. She actually stepped out of her division and showed up every time.
All Zenyatta had to do was run third in the classic and shes HOY.

If you bothered to read what I said, it was that Lady's Secret, like Azeri, only got HOY because no older male router on dirt stepped up and cemented the award. In no way did I compare the two as horses or compare the seasons they had. The same will be true of Zenyatta if she wins it this year. If Curlin had won the BC Classic, there would be no discussion. But because he didn't, the door is opened for her to win it. This is exactly how Lady's Secret won.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

False statement

During the year she won HOY, she didn't. It was in 2004 once she was transferred to Lukas that she stepped out.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

For reals? You really think that Kotoshaan wasn't a better horse than those two?

I don't know how to respond to that.

I can say it pretty confidently actually, go watch the 92' santa anita handicap or the 93' woodward i believe.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

If the Dubai World Cup counts for Curlin, why wouldn't a sprint race in Dubai count for BTB?? That would be a gross double standard.

I dont think it "technacially" counts. Just like Ravens Pass wins in Europe would not count to any type of eclipse awards.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you bothered to read what I said, it was that Lady's Secret, like Azeri, only got HOY because no older male router on dirt stepped up and cemented the award. In no way did I compare the two as horses or compare the seasons they had. The same will be true of Zenyatta if she wins it this year. If Curlin had won the BC Classic, there would be no discussion. But because he didn't, the door is opened for her to win it. This is exactly how Lady's Secret won.

But Lady's Secret was Dominating her Division and beating the older males on the dirt. She won one of the most prestigious races for older males and placed in 3 others. She won it because she did both things not only because no males stepped up. Azeri may have won it that way but not Lady.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

False statement

Follow the conversation

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I dont think it "technacially" counts. Just like Ravens Pass wins in Europe would not count to any type of eclipse awards.

This is so untrue. Do you think Arazi was named one of the three finalists for American HOY in 1991 off of ONLY his BC Juvenile win? Do you think that all of the other European horses that have come over and won a BC race and earned an Eclipse won them only because of their BC wins? And please don't avoid answering this question for me but how do you think Singspiel won his award? I'd love to hear the answer to this. Singspiel's two grade one wins on the year were the Canadian International and the Japan Cup. He never won a race here in the U.S. He lost the BC Turf to Pilsudski but he still won the Eclipse. How do you think he won it if foreign results don't count towards the awards?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

This is so untrue. Do you think Arazi was named one of the three finalists for American HOY in 1991 off of ONLY his BC Juvenile win? Do you think that all of the other European horses that have come over and won a BC race and earned an Eclipse won them only because of their BC wins? And please don't avoid answering this question for me but how do you think Singspiel won his award? I'd love to hear the answer to this. Singspiel's two grade one wins on the year were the Canadian International and the Japan Cup. He never won a race here in the U.S. He lost the BC Turf to Pilsudski but he still won the Eclipse. How do you think he won it if foreign results don't count towards the awards?

Yes, Arazi won because of the dominating performance over a good Bertrando, not because he won some turf event in Europe.

I dont think Singspeil should have won it with that record, it must have been a very very weak year. Who was the runner up?

If Foreign results counted then Sahkee should have been horse of the year over Tiznow at Belmont, Tiznow was very ordinary that year.

If Foreign results counted Ridgewood Pearl should have been champion turf horse instead of Northern Spur. I could go on an on.

[Linny]

There are no rules in Eclipse voting. In fact it is often very subjective. Singspiel is but one example.
It sometimes just depends on the competition. As good as Proud Spell and Music Note are, I would venture a guess that the "best" 3yo filly to race in the US this year was Goldikova. She crushed older males and her dominating performance over Classic runner up Henrythenavigator and 3x G1 winner Darjina (in the G1 Prix du Moulin) and 2 length loss to the Arc winner mark as her superior. In a year when there were no outstanding 3yo fillies she could be a solid candidate. This year we have Indian Blessing, Proud Spell and Music Note so we don't "need" to look outside the box.

The male sprinters this year are a mess. Since Street Boss has a true campaign, not one big race and one debacle, I'd lean toward him.

As much as I like Intangroo, the one time she and Indian Blessing met, IB handled her solidly. IB gets the nod.

I'm not opposed to counting foreign races for US based runners (Curlin, BTB) but less convinced about counting non US races for non US based runners. US horses deserve credit for good showing overseas. I'm sure that foreign voters give points to horses that ship to the US and win or run well in awarding whatever awards they may have. I tend to think that to earn an award, a horse should have a campaign and that it should be US based.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Linny

There are no rules in Eclipse voting. In fact it is often very subjective. Singspiel is but one example.
It sometimes just depends on the competition. As good as Proud Spell and Music Note are, I would venture a guess that the "best" 3yo filly to race in the US this year was Goldikova. She crushed older males and her dominating performance over Classic runner up Henrythenavigator and 3x G1 winner Darjina (in the G1 Prix du Moulin) and 2 length loss to the Arc winner mark as her superior. In a year when there were no outstanding 3yo fillies she could be a solid candidate. This year we have Indian Blessing, Proud Spell and Music Note so we don't "need" to look outside the box.

The male sprinters this year are a mess. Since Street Boss has a true campaign, not one big race and one debacle, I'd lean toward him.

As much as I like Intangroo, the one time she and Indian Blessing met, IB handled her solidly. IB gets the nod.

I'm not opposed to counting foreign races for US based runners (Curlin, BTB) but less convinced about counting non US races for non US based runners. US horses deserve credit for good showing overseas. I'm sure that foreign voters give points to horses that ship to the US and win or run well in awarding whatever awards they may have. I tend to think that to earn an award, a horse should have a campaign and that it should be US based.

I pretty much agree. I want to reward those that had a "season" and accomplished something special within the sport. Its not weighting like some places do rating the best effort in a race.