Norman gets six-month suspension

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Would a trainers salary not be considered a legitimate expense?

Nah,
You should be training them out of the goodness of our heart in exchange for a lotta grief and aggravation and an occasional free meal at Sergios.
What the hell is the matter with you!!!??? Don't you know that?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would estimate that 5% of trainers make enough on the day rate to not be considered poverty level.

Are you including their salary? There are hundreds of trainers across the country whose horses earn under $200,000 for the year. These guys are obviously making more than $20,000 a year. I'm not saying they're getting rich. I'm not saying that by any means. I'm sayng that they're getting by and making a living. Let's say you have a trainer at one of the smaller tracks and he has 20 horses and they earn a total of $200,000 for the year. Let's say the trainer is charging $55 a day. What would his salary be? He'd probably be making around $6 a day per horse. That means he's making $120 a day, so his salary would probably be around $3,600 a month. So this guy would probably be making a little over $50,000 a year total. That's not a lot of money, but it's enoiugh to get by, especially in a small town.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Are you including their salary? There are hundreds of trainers across the country whose horses earn under $200,000 for the year. These guys are obviously making more than $20,000 a year. I'm not saying they're getting rich. I'm not saying that by any means. I'm sayng that they're getting by and making a living. Let's say you have a trainer at one of the smaller tracks and he has 20 horses and they earn a total of $200,000 for the year. Let's say the trainer is charging $55 a day. What would his salary be? He'd probably be making around $6 a day per horse. That means he's making $120 a day, so his salary would probably be around $3,600 a month. So this guy would probably be making a little over $50,000 a year total. That's not a lot of money, but it's enoiugh to get by, especially in a small town.

What about the owners who stick you for bills of an amount to small to waste lawyer fees on that he has to eat?
YOu got that figured into the equation?
Unless you are talking about a place where that never happens. Its called Fantasyland downs.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

No, not at all. I have no problem with trainers taking a salary. Most trainers could not survive without taking a salary.

All I was saying was that many people that aren't in the indusrty and even a few in the industry, don't realize that trainers take a salary. People hear trainers say that they don't make anything on the day money, and some people take that to mean that the only money that trainers make is from purses. These people don't realize that the trainer gets a salary.

Of course you have to stake the grooms and employees when they travel also.
You figure that in as well?
Or maybe the guys who dont like to pay high vet bills so you do one out of your own pocket to win a race. You get that?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Would a trainers salary not be considered a legitimate expense?

Yes, it's a legitmate expense. I already said that.

I don't understand why trainers are so sensitive about this subject. They are always crying poverty, yet they have nice houses and drive nice cars.

If a trainer(in Southern California) has 40 horses and he is taking a salary of $130,000 a year, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if he's losing $10,000 a year on day money after all the salaries are paid including his own. That means he's still making $120,000 a year and that does not include what he makes on purses.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, it's a legitmate expense. I already said that.

I don't understand why trainers are so sensitive about this subject. They are always crying poverty, yet they have nice houses and drive nice cars.

If a trainer(in Southern California) has 40 horses and he is taking a salary of $130,000 a year, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if he's losing $10,000 a year on day money after all the salaries are paid including his own. That means he's still making $120,000 a year and that does not include what he makes on purses.

No, they all don't.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

What about the owners who stick you for bills of an amount to small to waste lawyer fees on that he has to eat?
YOu got that figured into the equation?
Unless you are talking about a place where that never happens. Its called Fantasyland downs.

Sure there will occasionally be people that don't pay their bills. That happens in any business.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

No, they all don't.

I'm not saying they all do. It's like any other business. Not everyone survives. Some trainers go out of business. If you have a trainer in Southern California that only has 8 horses and he rarely wins races, this guy will be barely be squeeking by if he's lucky. A guy like this probably won't last very long unless he can somehow live on $30,000-$35,000 a year.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not saying they all do. It's like any other business. Not everyone survives. Some trainers go out of business. If you have a trainer in Southern California that only has 8 horses and he rarely wins races, this guy will be barely be squeeking by if he's lucky. A guy like this probably won't last very long unless he can somehow live on $30,000-$35,000 a year.

Sigh,
Richi if you reread my post that started this, which you responded to, you'd see thats exactly WHAT I WAS SAYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, it's a legitmate expense. I already said that.

I don't understand why trainers are so sensitive about this subject. They are always crying poverty, yet they have nice houses and drive nice cars.

If a trainer(in Southern California) has 40 horses and he is taking a salary of $130,000 a year, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if he's losing $10,000 a year on day money after all the salaries are paid including his own. That means he's still making $120,000 a year and that does not include what he makes on purses.

First of all how many trainers in S. Cal have 40 horses? 15? That leaves the majority under that #. 2nd why do you think trainers are making enough money to pay themselves $130000? We are not asking for sympathy but would like owners to pay their bills on time and quit acting like we are raking in all this money. It simply is not so. I train between 30-45 horses and charge a competitive day rate and understand the finances very clearly. You are living on a razor thin margin that can change in a heart beat if a big owner fires you or doesn't pay his bill. We have to put up all the money in front so that the show continues to go on. Then we have to chase the money that is owed to us to try to catch up to the money that is paid out. Then there are all the little things that you fail to account for. Like if 2 or 3 horses get claimed or hurt, do you drop your employees salaries because you lost income? No you bite the bullet and make up the difference. If your feed supplier raises his rates do you not pay him? What about when your workmans comp goes up? Who pays for that?
You are implying that trainers who drive nice cars and live in nice houses are all making big bucks and crying poverty. That is complete BS. That attitude is why so many owners are so bad when it comes to paying bills. They see it as a luxury for a trainer as opposed to what it really is.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

First of all how many trainers in S. Cal have 40 horses? 15? That leaves the majority under that #. 2nd why do you think trainers are making enough money to pay themselves $130000? We are not asking for sympathy but would like owners to pay their bills on time and quit acting like we are raking in all this money. It simply is not so. I train between 30-45 horses and charge a competitive day rate and understand the finances very clearly. You are living on a razor thin margin that can change in a heart beat if a big owner fires you or doesn't pay his bill. We have to put up all the money in front so that the show continues to go on. Then we have to chase the money that is owed to us to try to catch up to the money that is paid out. Then there are all the little things that you fail to account for. Like if 2 or 3 horses get claimed or hurt, do you drop your employees salaries because you lost income? No you bite the bullet and make up the difference. If your feed supplier raises his rates do you not pay him? What about when your workmans comp goes up? Who pays for that?
You are implying that trainers who drive nice cars and live in nice houses are all making big bucks and crying poverty. That is complete BS. That attitude is why so many owners are so bad when it comes to paying bills. They see it as a luxury for a trainer as opposed to what it really is.

I was not implying that trainers are getting rich just because they live in a nice house and drive a nice car. I am simply saying that they are making a decent living. They're not getting rich. It's hard to get rich out here. It is very expensive living in Southern California.

With regard to your question about how many trainers in Southern California have over 40 horses, I think there are a lot. I would say that there are at least 25-30 trainers that have 40 horses or more. And there are probably only about 80-100 trainers here altogether I would guess.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i saw this one trainer walkin around with a huge piece of bling platinum chain in the shape of a slice of pie..it must have cost 150k....not...trainers should get all they can its no picknick dealing with a bunch of workers and the aniimals themselves..then add the owners in the mix ,,,oh man excedrin city..my hats off to anyone that can do it.....

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I was suspended for 15 days once. The notice that I received from the stewards said only that I was denied access of the grounds of the racetracks in that state. Thats all. They told me that the suspension would be honored nationwide but said nothing about anything else.

Thank you very much for the clarification. So there we have it -- a qualified opinion -- thank you! At least in this one jurisdiction (whatever state it was) those were the terms and conditions of the suspension.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by ELA

Rather than debate issues where we are counting other people's money, I for one would like to get some clarification on the "suspension" issue. The terms and conditions of the suspension will dictate how a person has to abide. As I said, this will vary from state to state.

So at least we know, in CA, the suspended trainer can communicate with whoever he wants. No phone record incriminations or anything of the like. I am sure if this positive test was elevated to a criminal matter then the circumstances would change. However, as one person pointed out, a positive test is not a criminal matter -- at least not initially. Anyway, I checked with local counsel and the same applies in NY and NJ.

Here is what he told me about bank records: He said that the CHRB has invetigators and they will try to stay on top of the money trail and make sure the trainer is not getting paid. They don't actually subpoena the bank records. They ask the trainer to voluntarily turn them over. If the trainer refuses, then the Board can refuse to give him his license back. Then the trainer could take them to court if it got that far. But usually the trainers will cooperate and give the board their bank records for every month during the suspension.

I would think that the terms and conditions not only spell out what the trainer can and cannot do to in order to abide, but it would also spell out what the governing body can and cannot do.

Thanks in advance to anyone who is able to clarify some of these issues. Somewhat ironic -- we need someone who has been suspended to clarify this for us, LOL.

Eric

Ladies and gentlemen --

I am quoting myself here to clarify something. The paragraph I have bolded and that starts out "Here is what he told me" IS NOT MY WORDS. I cut/pasted this from another poster so that I could answer the questions and I forgot to remove it. I apologize as those are not my words and I do not believe them to be true.

Thank you! And I will be removing the paragraph from my post. I say this because someone else already quoted me and it was a mistake.

Eric

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

i saw this one trainer walkin around with a huge piece of bling platinum chain in the shape of a slice of pie..it must have cost 150k....not...trainers should get all they can its no picknick dealing with a bunch of workers and the aniimals themselves..then add the owners in the mix ,,,oh man excedrin city..my hats off to anyone that can do it.....

You can say that again.
Man i feel sorry for some of em i know.
Up every ****ing day at 4:30. No days off, none.
Deal with problems with horses and employees, owners, etc.
To represent what a luxurious like they live is nuts.
Then you get owners who stiff em out on bills(that never happens right Canon Shell?) who keep right on claiming horses each day that cost more than what they owe the trainer whos gotta fill out the claim slip!!!!!!!
Amazing more of em aren't completely insane.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Are you including their salary? There are hundreds of trainers across the country whose horses earn under $200,000 for the year. These guys are obviously making more than $20,000 a year. I'm not saying they're getting rich. I'm not saying that by any means. I'm sayng that they're getting by and making a living. Let's say you have a trainer at one of the smaller tracks and he has 20 horses and they earn a total of $200,000 for the year. Let's say the trainer is charging $55 a day. What would his salary be? He'd probably be making around $6 a day per horse. That means he's making $120 a day, so his salary would probably be around $3,600 a month. So this guy would probably be making a little over $50,000 a year total. That's not a lot of money, but it's enoiugh to get by, especially in a small town.

This is where your theory is inaccurate and flawed. If a trainer were charging $55 per day they wouldn't be living in a small town and couldn't be making a decent living at $55,000 per year. We are completely neglecting the real cost of living and I am not talking about some hypothetical nonsense where we believe that the inflation rate is 3%, and a person's cost of living is stagnant.

I have a trainer at Penn National -- a high %, leading trainer. The guy shoots very good. He charges $45 a day. So your theory of "he'd probably me making $6 a day per horse" is, a) completly hypothetical and nothing more than a guess, and b) flawed because the $55 per day is not realistic. He couldn't possibly make the same amount of money you claim he is making (in your purely hypothetical claim) at $45 a day as he would be making at $55 a day. The economics make no sense.

I think most trainers don't make money on their daily rate and if there is a salary built into the equation, there is not enough room to make a so called "living" exclusively on the daily rate. At best it might pay for some personal expenses. I know too many trainers who aren't "making a living" off of just training horses. I think the money is in the portion of the 10% they get to net or keep, the bonus or commission, if you want to call it that, on a big horse being sold, and other variables.

There are economies of scale that most trainers cannot take advantage of unless and until they get their operation to a point of scale where they can make money. I have heard of trainers making money on the daily rate by potentiallycutting corners on help, doing the work of a man/woman themselves, cutting corners on feed, equiptment, or cutting corners some other way.

We have a trainer here telling us the real and accurate situation. I see no reason not to believe that other than to perpetuate some massive facade.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

First of all how many trainers in S. Cal have 40 horses? 15? That leaves the majority under that #. 2nd why do you think trainers are making enough money to pay themselves $130000? We are not asking for sympathy but would like owners to pay their bills on time and quit acting like we are raking in all this money. It simply is not so. I train between 30-45 horses and charge a competitive day rate and understand the finances very clearly. You are living on a razor thin margin that can change in a heart beat if a big owner fires you or doesn't pay his bill. We have to put up all the money in front so that the show continues to go on. Then we have to chase the money that is owed to us to try to catch up to the money that is paid out. Then there are all the little things that you fail to account for. Like if 2 or 3 horses get claimed or hurt, do you drop your employees salaries because you lost income? No you bite the bullet and make up the difference. If your feed supplier raises his rates do you not pay him? What about when your workmans comp goes up? Who pays for that?
You are implying that trainers who drive nice cars and live in nice houses are all making big bucks and crying poverty. That is complete BS. That attitude is why so many owners are so bad when it comes to paying bills. They see it as a luxury for a trainer as opposed to what it really is.

Excellent post.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

No, not at all. I have no problem with trainers taking a salary. Most trainers could not survive without taking a salary.

All I was saying was that many people that aren't in the indusrty and even a few in the industry, don't realize that trainers take a salary. People hear trainers say that they don't make anything on the day money, and some people take that to mean that the only money that trainers make is from purses. These people don't realize that the trainer gets a salary.

I think this is semantics. "Making money" is a very relative term, and just because a trainer is taking a salary doesn't mean the trainer is "making money" per se (on the/that salary). Making money, to some, is being able to take that money and "put it away" -- invest it, allow it to become a capital asset, etc. To others, "making money" might just mean using that money to "live" and pay some personal, neccessary living expenses. I am in the financial business -- the latter is not "making money" -- it really means "getting by" and/or "paying your bills" and that's all it might mean.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

This is where your theory is inaccurate and flawed. If a trainer were charging $55 per day they wouldn't be living in a small town and couldn't be making a decent living at $55,000 per year. We are completely neglecting the real cost of living and I am not talking about some hypothetical nonsense where we believe that the inflation rate is 3%, and a person's cost of living is stagnant.

I have a trainer at Penn National -- a high %, leading trainer. The guy shoots very good. He charges $45 a day. So your theory of "he'd probably me making $6 a day per horse" is, a) completly hypothetical and nothing more than a guess, and b) flawed because the $55 per day is not realistic. He couldn't possibly make the same amount of money you claim he is making (in your purely hypothetical claim) at $45 a day as he would be making at $55 a day. The economics make no sense.

I think most trainers don't make money on their daily rate and if there is a salary built into the equation, there is not enough room to make a so called "living" exclusively on the daily rate. At best it might pay for some personal expenses. I know too many trainers who aren't "making a living" off of just training horses. I think the money is in the portion of the 10% they get to net or keep, the bonus or commission, if you want to call it that, on a big horse being sold, and other variables.

There are economies of scale that most trainers cannot take advantage of unless and until they get their operation to a point of scale where they can make money. I have heard of trainers making money on the daily rate by potentiallycutting corners on help, doing the work of a man/woman themselves, cutting corners on feed, equiptment, or cutting corners some other way.

We have a trainer here telling us the real and accurate situation. I see no reason not to believe that other than to perpetuate some massive facade.

Eric

I didn't say the guy making $55,000 a year was "making a decent living". I said about the guy making $55,000 a year that "That's not a lot of money but it's enough to get by, especially in a small town". That was my quote. I never said that the trainers at the smallest tracks charge $55 a day. I would expect to see $55 a day at some of the smaller tracks, not necessarily the smallest tracks. We have a horse at Mountaineer who has not run yet. I just looked at the bill and the trainer is charging us $48 a day. On the other hand, one of our trainers at Hollywood Park is charging us $100 a day. Depending on what track you're at, you could see anything from around $45 a day all the way up to around $120 a day. There are certainly trainers that charge $55 a day and that's not at the big tracks. at the big tracks, most of them charge between $75-$100.

Are you saying that most trainers don't take a salary? Cannon Shell told you that they take a salary. If they didn't take a salary, they couldn't survive. What do you think the average trainer's horses make in a year? Maybe $250,000? If they didn't take salary, that would mean that the avegra trainer was making less than $25,000 a year.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

Ladies and gentlemen --

I am quoting myself here to clarify something. The paragraph I have bolded and that starts out "Here is what he told me" IS NOT MY WORDS. I cut/pasted this from another poster so that I could answer the questions and I forgot to remove it. I apologize as those are not my words and I do not believe them to be true.

Thank you! And I will be removing the paragraph from my post. I say this because someone else already quoted me and it was a mistake.

Eric

You don't believe the words to be true? Does that mean you think I'm lying or you think the former commisioner from the CHRB is lying. I've known the guy for 25 years. We even owned a horse together back in the 1980s. I can assure you that he's not lying.

Instead of accusing people of lying, why don't you call the CHRB and ask them if and how they make sure that a suspended trainer is not still collecting money while he's on suspension.