Discreet Cat's BC Plans Announced

[Gander]

I very much doubt we'll see either Joey. No BC, yet not a horse likely to be around for a long time either. I hope I am wrong, its nice to see top talent but it seems the most talented are also the most fragile, a la Surf Cat, Ghostzapper.

Anyway you slice it next Saturday will be super and so will the BC.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

My point was mistaken.

This horse is something special. But he's also fragile and lightly-raced. Running him in any BC race, be it the Sprint, Mile, Classic, whatever, is ridiculous off of wins over Rumspringa and Valid Notebook.

Do any of you realize how much that would put this potential superstar through the wringer? And why? So we get immediate satisfaction.

Can we please think bigger picture here? If this horse stays healthy (given that's a big if), we could possibly see the best handicap horse in a few decades next year.. But no, we have to see him in the SPRINT against the BEST SPRINTERS IN THE WORLD, or in the CLASSIC against the BEST DISTANCE HORSES IN THE WORLD, and we have to see it NOW.

It's totally short-sighted and unnecessary. I think Godolphin is doing what's right by the horse, and honestly, as much as everyone dislikes the Sheiks, they seem to be among the best at managing their horses in the U.S.

I guess where we disagree is how much of a factor the competition he faces matters. I think if he's going to run in the Cigar Mile a few weeks after the BC, where he would face much better than he's been facing in these last two, including maybe Silver Train, it's going to take a strong effort for him to win. What is the difference if he's putting in a strong effort in the Cigar or in the BC?

If he's as fragile as u say (and I'm not saying he isn't), then what makes u think we'll see anything resembling a full campaign from him next year? Or would it be enough for u to see a Ghostzapper type of year from him where he races four times? I say that tomorrow is not promised and when u have a hot iron, u strike. If he's as fragile as u say, wouldn't that be even more of a reason to take advantage of his abilities while he's in form and healthy because it's always going to be 50/50 next year?

I wonder if anyone on this board is old enough to remember when horses actually RACED. Now we are talking about skipping a tough race because it would be too tough on him? If he continues on next year, it's very likely that they will point to the Dubai World Cup with him. U don't expect that race to be tough? It would probably be his first start at 10f and first or second start off a layoff.

[blackthroatedwind]

I just got off the phone with the Sheik......



I tried to ask him about Discreet Cat....



He would have none of it!





He, of course, was merely calling to wish me all the best on Yom Kippur.

[King Glorious]

I read this on another board so I can't take credit for it but it does make sense:

"There is also the aspect that by giving the public Discreet Cat vs Bernardini in the BC Classic they are validating that as the biggest dirt race in the world. If instead Bernardini wins the Classic and meets an undefeated Discreet Cat in the World Cup you could call that the biggest dirt race in the World and to make matters even better for them it would be Coolmore free."

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I read this on another board so I can't take credit for it but it does make sense:

"There is also the aspect that by giving the public Discreet Cat vs Bernardini in the BC Classic they are validating that as the biggest dirt race in the world. If instead Bernardini wins the Classic and meets an undefeated Discreet Cat in the World Cup you could call that the biggest dirt race in the World and to make matters even better for them it would be Coolmore free."

You, my friend, have a lot of atoning to do for sabotaging my thread.

[Danzig]

it's kind of a shame tho, to see that talent wasted on allowance fields, and in the jerome today. he looked good, best performance i've seen in some time.

yeah, i agree skipping the bc this year would be in the best interests of the horse--but i'm not so sure that would translate into more of him next year either....

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

My point was mistaken.

This horse is something special. But he's also fragile and lightly-raced. Running him in any BC race, be it the Sprint, Mile, Classic, whatever, is ridiculous off of wins over Rumspringa and Valid Notebook.

Do any of you realize how much that would put this potential superstar through the wringer? And why? So we get immediate satisfaction.

Can we please think bigger picture here? If this horse stays healthy (given that's a big if), we could possibly see the best handicap horse in a few decades next year.. But no, we have to see him in the SPRINT against the BEST SPRINTERS IN THE WORLD, or in the CLASSIC against the BEST DISTANCE HORSES IN THE WORLD, and we have to see it NOW.

It's totally short-sighted and unnecessary. I think Godolphin is doing what's right by the horse, and honestly, as much as everyone dislikes the Sheiks, they seem to be among the best at managing their horses in the U.S.

U say u think that they are doing what's right by the horse. Well let me show u something that I just read on a racing site:

"We'll keep our options open for the Breeders' Cup or Cigar Mile," bin Suroor added. "This horse has the class to run in big group I races. Everything we've asked, he's done so easily. That gives us a lot of confidence for the future. We'll probably give it 10 days, and then decide with Sheikh Mohammed (bin Rashid al Maktoum)."

So my question is would u still think they are doing right by him if they run him in the BC? They've been constantly saying that it's very unlikely but now finally they are saying they are keeping their options open. The door is now opened much wider than it was before. Since u say they are doing right by him and they are among the best at managing their horses, would u backtrack off of that statement if they do contrary to what u believe is best or would still say the same thing?

[my miss storm cat]

Excerpt.....

"He has the class to go to Grade One races now. There is either the Breeders' Cup Classic (Churchill Downs) in early November or the Cigar Mile (Aqueduct) at the end of that month. We will keep the options open and consult with Sheikh Mohammed." - Saeed bin Suroor


http://godolphin.com/News/2006/October/arch2989.asp

[Gander]

I wonder if anyone on this board is old enough to remember when horses actually RACED.

I do. It was a wonderful time and not too long ago we were spoiled by horses like Cigar and Skip Away.

I couldnt agree more with the comments regarding that it makes little difference whether or not Discreet Cat has a taxing effort in the BC Sprint versus the Cigar Mile. After all, Silver Train is no slouch and will at least make the horse work a bit.

Well, at least we have the Vosburgh!

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

My point was mistaken.

This horse is something special. But he's also fragile and lightly-raced. Running him in any BC race, be it the Sprint, Mile, Classic, whatever, is ridiculous off of wins over Rumspringa and Valid Notebook.

Do any of you realize how much that would put this potential superstar through the wringer? And why? So we get immediate satisfaction.

Can we please think bigger picture here? If this horse stays healthy (given that's a big if), we could possibly see the best handicap horse in a few decades next year.. But no, we have to see him in the SPRINT against the BEST SPRINTERS IN THE WORLD, or in the CLASSIC against the BEST DISTANCE HORSES IN THE WORLD, and we have to see it NOW.

It's totally short-sighted and unnecessary. I think Godolphin is doing what's right by the horse, and honestly, as much as everyone dislikes the Sheiks, they seem to be among the best at managing their horses in the U.S.

I want to see him in the Cigar Mile, take the rest of the winter off, and then go into a prep for the Met Mile next year, the Met Mile, all of the big summer/fall GIs, the BC Classic, and then HOY!!!

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Excerpt.....

"He has the class to go to Grade One races now. There is either the Breeders' Cup Classic (Churchill Downs) in early November or the Cigar Mile (Aqueduct) at the end of that month. We will keep the options open and consult with Sheikh Mohammed." - Saeed bin Suroor


http://godolphin.com/News/2006/October/arch2989.asp

There is zero chance IMO that he ends up in the Classic if Bernardini goes. None.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

U say u think that they are doing what's right by the horse. Well let me show u something that I just read on a racing site:

"We'll keep our options open for the Breeders' Cup or Cigar Mile," bin Suroor added. "This horse has the class to run in big group I races. Everything we've asked, he's done so easily. That gives us a lot of confidence for the future. We'll probably give it 10 days, and then decide with Sheikh Mohammed (bin Rashid al Maktoum)."

So my question is would u still think they are doing right by him if they run him in the BC? They've been constantly saying that it's very unlikely but now finally they are saying they are keeping their options open. The door is now opened much wider than it was before. Since u say they are doing right by him and they are among the best at managing their horses, would u backtrack off of that statement if they do contrary to what u believe is best or would still say the same thing?

I would backtrack a bit, just because in my opinion, he's not ready to go into the BCS or the BCC, but I don't think they're going to try a BC race unless the horse is 100% ready both physically and mentally. If he goes in either, I have to believe they know what they're doing, because, like I said, I feel that they're among the best at managing their horses.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I guess where we disagree is how much of a factor the competition he faces matters. I think if he's going to run in the Cigar Mile a few weeks after the BC, where he would face much better than he's been facing in these last two, including maybe Silver Train, it's going to take a strong effort for him to win. What is the difference if he's putting in a strong effort in the Cigar or in the BC?

Okay.. I'm going out on a limb here and saying that it's going to take a much more taxing performance to run six furlongs against a full field of the best sprinters in the world or ten furlongs against a full field of the best distance dirt horses in the world off of five weeks' rest than it would take to run against six or seven mid-level Grade 1 horses at a mile off eight weeks' rest. I guess that's just me. You seem two think the two would be equally strenuous.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If he's as fragile as u say (and I'm not saying he isn't), then what makes u think we'll see anything resembling a full campaign from him next year? Or would it be enough for u to see a Ghostzapper type of year from him where he races four times? I say that tomorrow is not promised and when u have a hot iron, u strike. If he's as fragile as u say, wouldn't that be even more of a reason to take advantage of his abilities while he's in form and healthy because it's always going to be 50/50 next year?

That's my point. I'm of the mind that if he skips the BC this year, he will have a much better shot of having a full campaign next year than he would were they to force him into the BC now. Could he still get injured next year? Of course, but I think considering his fragility, common sense should steer them away from this year's BC if they do indeed have intentions on running him as a 4-year-old.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I wonder if anyone on this board is old enough to remember when horses actually RACED. Now we are talking about skipping a tough race because it would be too tough on him? If he continues on next year, it's very likely that they will point to the Dubai World Cup with him. U don't expect that race to be tough? It would probably be his first start at 10f and first or second start off a layoff.

Give me a break. The horse beat Rumspringa at seven furlongs and Valid Notebook at a one-turn mile. Those are his two starts since March. YOU WANT TO RUN HIM AGAINST THE BEST DIRT HORSES IN THE WORLD OFF OF THOSE TWO RACES. You're suggesting that it's some outlandish idea to skip the race, when I think it's ludicrous to run in the race.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I want to see him in the Cigar Mile, take the rest of the winter off, and then go into a prep for the Met Mile next year, the Met Mile, all of the big summer/fall GIs, the BC Classic, and then HOY!!!

That's what I'd like to see as well.

And for the record, if he does run in a BC race, I think the Classic makes more sense, just because I feel that going from seven furlongs to eight to ten is much easier than going from seven to eight, then back to six, when you're talking about this caliber of competition.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

That's what I'd like to see as well.

And for the record, if he does run in a BC race, I think the Classic makes more sense, just because I feel that going from seven furlongs to eight to ten is much easier than going from seven to eight, then back to six, when you're talking about this caliber of competition.

As fragile as DC is, I really feel like the speed required for the Sprint, and the distance of the Classic may be a step too far for this phenomenal horse off of an eight furlong race.

[pmayjr]

Well there is the "Sun King" angle.

Sun King won that 6f Sprint Stakes race at Keeneland back in the spring. I'm pretty sure that was his first cut-back in distance and he won. You know the fractions will be suicidal in the Sprint, so DC could sit off of it and hope to come with a run late.

Even if Godolphin's idea is to save him for next year- I'm so afraid he's gonna pull a Ghostzapper and be retired after a race. If you got him in good form now, you gotta keep moving up. There is this angle too:

What if he loses whatever BC race he's entered in? So what? Just give him a layoff until '07 and start it up again. Give him a couple of easy spring preps, and get him prepped for the biggies next summer.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

Well there is the "Sun King" angle.

Sun King won that 6f Sprint Stakes race at Keeneland back in the spring. I'm pretty sure that was his first cut-back in distance and he won. You know the fractions will be suicidal in the Sprint, so DC could sit off of it and hope to come with a run late.

Even if Godolphin's idea is to save him for next year- I'm so afraid he's gonna pull a Ghostzapper and be retired after a race. If you got him in good form now, you gotta keep moving up. There is this angle too:

What if he loses whatever BC race he's entered in? So what? Just give him a layoff until '07 and start it up again. Give him a couple of easy spring preps, and get him prepped for the biggies next summer.

I hope you didn't just compare the Commonwealth BC to the BC Sprint.

And Discreet Cat is too fast to close. He'll be up there running a :21 quarter with all of them if they're insane enough to put him in the Sprint.

This is a completely different situation than Ghostzapper's. Ghostzapper had already won the Classic, and had already won HOY. There was no reason to bring him back. They brought him back to try to showcase his talent, then realized it wasn't worth the risk once he hurt himself.

Discreet Cat hasn't done anything yet. He won the UAE Derby and The Jerome. That's it. There's absolutely no incentive to run him once next year and retire him.

It's not about losing the BC race. It's about possibly losing the horse.

You're worried about not seeing him next year. I'd say there's a much bigger chance this fear will become reality if he's in this year's BC than if he isn't.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I hope you didn't just compare the Commonwealth BC to the BC Sprint.

And Discreet Cat is too fast to close. He'll be up there running a :21 quarter with all of them if they're insane enough to put him in the Sprint.

This is a completely different situation than Ghostzapper's. Ghostzapper had already won the Classic, and had already won HOY. There was no reason to bring him back. They brought him back to try to showcase his talent, then realized it wasn't worth the risk once he hurt himself.

Discreet Cat hasn't done anything yet. He won the UAE Derby and The Jerome. That's it. There's absolutely no incentive to run him once next year and retire him.

It's not about losing the BC race. It's about possibly losing the horse.

You're worried about not seeing him next year. I'd say there's a much bigger chance this fear will become reality if he's in this year's BC than if he isn't.

My dad said to me a long time ago......."if u are scared, buy a dog." This game is not for the faint of heart. U can't start ducking from races because u are scared a horse will get hurt. They can get hurt or die at any time. Look at Saint Liam. A seemingly perfect horse that's never shown any signs of problems can take a bad step and it can all be over. Think of Go for Wand or Barbaro. Should they never run in another race with Discreet Cat because of the possibility that he can be lost?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My dad said to me a long time ago......."if u are scared, buy a dog." This game is not for the faint of heart. U can't start ducking from races because u are scared a horse will get hurt. They can get hurt or die at any time. Look at Saint Liam. A seemingly perfect horse that's never shown any signs of problems can take a bad step and it can all be over. Think of Go for Wand or Barbaro. Should they never run in another race with Discreet Cat because of the possibility that he can be lost?

Man, stop with that nonsense. It's about being smart with the horse. It's just plain dumb to go from facing Rumspringa at seven furlongs and Valid Notebook at a one-turn mile to facing the best horses in the world at six furlongs or ten. Period.

That's how you ruin a horse.

If they ducked the Cigar Mile, then I'd be on your side. But skipping the BC is just logical and levelheaded.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

The Cigar Mile really would be the optimum spot for this horse. I even said that he should go in the Cigar Mile before his race today. Besides, a matchup between Silver Train and Discreet Cat would be something that I would absolutely love to see. All I have to do is wait a little longer to see the monster run again...

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

Can Godolphin keep Humpty Dumpty together? Sure the ideal situation would be to go light this year and campaign for HOY next year culminating in the BCC, but it seems that its only a matter of time before this horse gets injured again. No it's not best to go into the BC off these two races, but he's healthy right now - who knows what his condition will be 13 months from now.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Man, stop with that nonsense. It's about being smart with the horse. It's just plain dumb to go from facing Rumspringa at seven furlongs and Valid Notebook at a one-turn mile to facing the best horses in the world at six furlongs or ten. Period.

That's how you ruin a horse.

If they ducked the Cigar Mile, then I'd be on your side. But skipping the BC is just logical and levelheaded.

U are right. It does make sense to skip the BC and go on and challenge the reigning BC Sprint champion Silver Train in his next start. That matchup with Silver Train would be a much easier race to win. He wouldn't have to use much effort at all. I mean, since it's inception, 16 of the 17 runnings of the Cigar have been sub-1:35, including seven that were sub-1:34. That's not taxing at all. I'm sure the effort needed by him to beat Silver Train (four of his last six Beyer's have been 110+, his last two miles have been 110 and 112) would be much less than what would be needed to step up to win the BC Mile.

Newsflash. His next race is going to be a much harder one than what he's been facing. Doesn't matter if it's the BC Mile or the Cigar Mile. The BC Mile would just be more horses to beat but the effort needed is going to be nearly the same either way. He's more than likely going to have to run a 1:33 and change race in either spot.