The Mother Goose Stakes

[Linny]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Papi Chullo, Sun King, Premium Tap? I guess the two-week gap from the Foster contributes as well.

Premium Tap is in Saudi Arabia. He's NOT COMING BACK. He's GONE!
(sorry to yell but I get asked about him every 3 days!)

I'd like to see Sun King back. Papi appears to have hurt himself. AP Arrow is in the Hollywood Gold Cup. Todd is flipping him and Fairbanks.
It sure does seem like there should be a few more top class older horses for this. I know Invasor might have scared some off, but geez, take a shot and nominate. It seems odd that Political Force and Corinthian are all we can muster for the historic Suburban. This is what happens when 3yo's are retired. Horses like Bluegrass Cat, Bernardini, etc could (arguably) have been even better this year and made the "older horse" division more fun. Next year wont be much better. SS and HS are done this year and Rags will stay w/fillies. Maybe they will keep Curlin going.

Don't even get me going on the Ma Goose. From the Acorn, only Boca Grande comes back. There were 14 in the Oaks and only 1 shows up here. No Cotton Blossom, no Christmas Kid, no ...no fun...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Linny

Premium Tap is in Saudi Arabia. He's NOT COMING BACK. He's GONE!
(sorry to yell but I get asked about him every 3 days!)

I'd like to see Sun King back. Papi appears to have hurt himself. AP Arrow is in the Hollywood Gold Cup. Todd is flipping him and Fairbanks.
It sure does seem like there should be a few more top class older horses for this. I know Invasor might have scared some off, but geez, take a shot and nominate. It seems odd that Political Force and Corinthian are all we can muster for the historic Suburban.

Don't even get me going on the Ma Goose. From the Acorn, only Boca Grande comes back. There were 14 in the Oaks and only 1 shows up here. No Cotton Blossom, no Christmas Kid, no ...no fun...

I think I read in the Form that Christmas Kid is going to Turf.

Fairbank's still holds that lofty post of highest Beyer of the year over a mile. Who knows, maybe he'll duplicate it and enrich the older male division for a whole 2 more starts on the season ( ).

[Storm Cadet]

At this rate Rags to Riches will have a match race in the Alabama if she runs there....if nobody wants to run in the Goose and pick up easy purse money...who would want to run vs RTR? Bad for racing

And I wonder how much of a hit NYRA takes with the purse payout?

If the Nomination fee is only $250.00 and only a handful actually paid the $2500 to pass the entry box and start...where does NYRA get the $$$ to pay out $250,000. $10,000 in entry fees and they have to shell out $250,00 in purse?

Same with the Suburban...$400 to nominate and another small field which paid the $4,000 to start. The 4th place horse gets 5% and will get $20,000. The 5th place horse will get 3% and $12,000. I should have entered 6 year old Diligent Gambler and told the jockey to get 4th or 5th place if he could and triple my money! NYRA gets a little over $24,000 in entry fees and shells out $400,00.

No wonder they lose millions! And in this case it's not NYRA's fault.

[blackthroatedwind]

The problem with the Suburban is that with Invasor dropping out so late most people/horses simply couldn't be ready on short notice. Plus, horses that might have gone here, had they known Invasor was out, ran in the Foster to avoid him. It seems reasonable that one of Master Command or Magna Graduate would have run here instead and very possibly Wanderin Boy.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The problem with the Suburban is that with Invasor dropping out so late most people/horses simply couldn't be ready on short notice. Plus, horses that might have gone here, had they known Invasor was out, ran in the Foster to avoid him. It seems reasonable that one of Master Command or Magna Graduate would have run here instead and very possibly Wanderin Boy.

Yep, the news came too late for some.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The problem with the Suburban is that with Invasor dropping out so late most people/horses simply couldn't be ready on short notice. Plus, horses that might have gone here, had they known Invasor was out, ran in the Foster to avoid him. It seems reasonable that one of Master Command or Magna Graduate would have run here instead and very possibly Wanderin Boy.

Fair point, but even if you concede the race to Invasor they still pay $80K for second.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

At this rate Rags to Riches will have a match race in the Alabama if she runs there....if nobody wants to run in the Goose and pick up easy purse money...who would want to run vs RTR? Bad for racing

That's a good point. If the mighty Octave is scaring entrants away (not saying that's actually what happened here), then who's going to want to face Rags to Riches? Can you say walkover? I can't imagine it will happen, but you can't blame anyone for thinking it might.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Papi Chullo, Sun King, Premium Tap? I guess the two-week gap from the Foster contributes as well.

Not exactly the who's who of racing legends. I guess it was my wiseguy way of saying that there is no legit older horse division anymore. Simply does not exist. Sure there are some decent older horses around but are really any of them truly better than ok? Sad state of affairs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

At this rate Rags to Riches will have a match race in the Alabama if she runs there....if nobody wants to run in the Goose and pick up easy purse money...who would want to run vs RTR? Bad for racing

And I wonder how much of a hit NYRA takes with the purse payout?

If the Nomination fee is only $250.00 and only a handful actually paid the $2500 to pass the entry box and start...where does NYRA get the $$$ to pay out $250,000. $10,000 in entry fees and they have to shell out $250,00 in purse?

Same with the Suburban...$400 to nominate and another small field which paid the $4,000 to start. The 4th place horse gets 5% and will get $20,000. The 5th place horse will get 3% and $12,000. I should have entered 6 year old Diligent Gambler and told the jockey to get 4th or 5th place if he could and triple my money! NYRA gets a little over $24,000 in entry fees and shells out $400,00.

No wonder they lose millions! And in this case it's not NYRA's fault.

The money all comes from the purse account. The amount for stakes races is negotiated by the track and the horsemans organization. That is why you see races like the Pimlico Special being cancelled. The horseman cry foul if a few big dollar stakes cause there to be a deficit in the purse account. The track is not actually putting up any of the money. And when you see a race is 'guaranteed', it another way of saying "the track is going to keep all the entry and nomination fees". When you see 'added', the track puts the money in the purse which actually makes the race worth more. The year I won the West Point Hdcp the purse was $100k added. The final purse was close to $120k. Obviously it is better for the horseman when you are running not only for the purse but to get your own money back.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

Chuck, this may sound crazy but if you had known the field would come up this light (and she was ready, of course) would you have entered Sumwon? It's a freeroll, $2,750 to start and $7,500 guaranteed for 5th.

If I stabled close to NY, probably. What if you dont enter and 2 scratch? I have made some owners quite a bit of money in both real purses and bloodstock value by entering and running in short field stakes.

[whodey17]

I believe there are 10 Grade I's restricted for 3 year old fillies at 8 furlongs or longer on dirt and 9 Grade I's for 3 years old males at 8 furlongs or longer on dirt. I don't know if that is too many or too few or just right. I am leaning towards it being just right. That is less than one Grade 1 event a month. The Mother goose field is a blunder for sure, but there are many reasons why the field is so small and those have been pointed out in several posts. I really think that tracks need to work together to ensure quality fields and quality racing.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If I stabled close to NY, probably. What if you dont enter and 2 scratch? I have made some owners quite a bit of money in both real purses and bloodstock value by entering and running in short field stakes.

Absolutely, the bloodstock value of "finishing third in a G1" isn't diminished by there only being 5 in there. It's still GSP.

On top of that, the way these short field stake races are run, it's more likely that a Sumwon-type who wouldn't necessarily be trying to win but rather catch a piece more likely ends up finishing 3rd rather than 5th, as one or two top contenders push too hard trying for the win and stop cold.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not exactly the who's who of racing legends. I guess it was my wiseguy way of saying that there is no legit older horse division anymore. Simply does not exist. Sure there are some decent older horses around but are really any of them truly better than ok? Sad state of affairs.

That is why I thought Invasor retiring left such a hole. He was the only horse you could point to and say confirdently, yes, that is a true standout GR1 performer.

otherwise we're left with a bunch of questions marks and so-so campaigners. Personally I think Premium Tap moved last year into the category of consistent GR1 horse, but I guess he may not race again over here. Rags and Curlin may be better right now than all of the current older horses, and that shouldn't be.

thats why in stakes races these days I look for the horse in the best current form, regardless of class because there is not such a big class differential that a sharp in-form horse cannot overcome.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The money all comes from the purse account. The amount for stakes races is negotiated by the track and the horsemans organization. That is why you see races like the Pimlico Special being cancelled. The horseman cry foul if a few big dollar stakes cause there to be a deficit in the purse account. The track is not actually putting up any of the money. And when you see a race is 'guaranteed', it another way of saying "the track is going to keep all the entry and nomination fees". When you see 'added', the track puts the money in the purse which actually makes the race worth more. The year I won the West Point Hdcp the purse was $100k added. The final purse was close to $120k. Obviously it is better for the horseman when you are running not only for the purse but to get your own money back.

But in this case, NYRA only got 10,000 in entry fees and pays out 250,000. The Suburban got only $24,000 in entry fees but shells out $400,000 guaranteed. WHERES does this extra $$$$ come from? Does NYRA take the hit?
I'm sure they would have liked to have at least 10 starters in each to reduce their purse layout or do they have this build in in some purse reserve account?

Thanks for your input!

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

But in this case, NYRA only got 10,000 in entry fees and pays out 250,000. The Suburban got only $24,000 in entry fees but shells out $400,000 guaranteed. WHERES does this extra $$$$ come from? Does NYRA take the hit?
I'm sure they would have liked to have at least 10 starters in each to reduce their purse layout or do they have this build in in some purse reserve account?

Thanks for your input!

It's called takeout from handle. That's what pays every (non-slot fueled) purse in the world...

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by philcski

It's called takeout from handle. That's what pays every (non-slot fueled) purse in the world...

Phil,

I know that the handle pays, but how many 1/4 million hits can they absorb from the takeout with all their other funding issues as we see these short fields and dwindling attendance? I know they don't have a balanced budget, but I'd sure hate to be the accountant who does financial projections on race purse and takeout for NYRA.

SC

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Phil,

I know that the handle pays, but how many 1/4 million hits can they absorb from the takeout with all their other funding issues as we see these short fields and dwindling attendance? I know they don't have a balanced budget, but I'd sure hate to be the accountant who does financial projections on race purse and takeout for NYRA.

SC

Quite a few... the handle on Saturday for NYRA racing alone will probably be around $7-8MM. Their blended take is probably around 12%, factoring in off track percentages kept. That's $1,000,000, which is plenty enough to cover the purses if they did a better job with efficiency. The problem with short fields is they're a LOT less attractive to bet, which decreases handle.

On top of that, they simulcast other facilities, which is basically "free money" from their perspective.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

But in this case, NYRA only got 10,000 in entry fees and pays out 250,000. The Suburban got only $24,000 in entry fees but shells out $400,000 guaranteed. WHERES does this extra $$$$ come from? Does NYRA take the hit?
I'm sure they would have liked to have at least 10 starters in each to reduce their purse layout or do they have this build in in some purse reserve account?

Thanks for your input!

The money that pays for the purses is not their money, it is the horsemans money derived as a cut from the handle. The tracks just hold the money. One of the big issues that the investigations uncovered was NYRA using the horsemans account to pay operating expenses. They always replaced the funds but it really was a scary situation for the horsemen, most of whom had no idea that this was happening. In fact the head of the horsemans group claimed he didnt know either but I am skeptical of that claim.

[iceman967]

How can Cotton Blossom's connections dodge the Mother Goose? After 15 years, the public demands a triple tiara winner.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The problem with the Suburban is that with Invasor dropping out so late most people/horses simply couldn't be ready on short notice. Plus, horses that might have gone here, had they known Invasor was out, ran in the Foster to avoid him. It seems reasonable that one of Master Command or Magna Graduate would have run here instead and very possibly Wanderin Boy.

The bigger problem is that the only two G1 dirt races at 10f for older horses since the SA H in March IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY are scheduled for the SAME DAY! The next one isn't until the end of August! Of course, the fields for both are watered down, since there aren't that many good older horses at more than 8f to begin with.