New Congressman Thinks Quran Thumps Constitution

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I apologize if this link is considered the definitive source for this debate. This one story? Note the bold text in the original post. I began by referencing my experience on a Christian message board, and the links posted there and the research I have done has shown that it is generally the Christian right that is worried about this. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't actually recollect making any judgment about this news source's partisan or religious affiliation. So you're accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about, and here I will accuse you of the same. You're implying that I have branded World News Daily as a right-wing Christian group. I am talking about the Christian right. You are saying that I am including this news source in that umbrella.

That's your injection into what I've written, not what I have actually written.

PARSE PARSE PARSE...so show me a link to what you think the Christian right is saying ...and what they believe...so far all I have to go on is your interpretation,which I think is faulty.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Brian: please note that the article link is from WorldNewsDaily...hardly a Christian right wing site! So...what we have is you speaking about the Christian right reacting to Ellison and the Quoran...which is not what happened! So...once again your bias shows through. You can be what ever you want to Brian...gay,liberal,muslim,Rastafarian...please..j ust know what you talking about when you pretend to know what somebody is about!

Hummm....I realize that the writer here is throwing out broad examples but that's an interesting group..."gay, liberal, Muslim, Rastafarian"....the last two are religions and their members are rather homogeneous in beliefs, especially related to "religious topics" but gays and liberals...well, not so much, especially gays who tend to cover the entire spectrum of philosophic and religious thought....so, why include them in such a listing?? Another "interesting" aspect here is the lead in..."you can be whatever you want to...". Gosh, it sure sounds like you are saying that a person is gay because they want to be or it's a matter of choice on their part....interesting!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

PARSE PARSE PARSE...so show me a link to what you think the Christian right is saying ...and what they believe...so far all I have to go on is your interpretation,which I think is faulty.

If you want to read the Christian message board I am on, I'd be happy to PM you the link. They are the Christian right. They are certainly a good representation of the demographic.

A quick search on that forum for any of the issues that I would consider the "small fish" would show that any of those issues eat up more of their time and more of their energy than any of the issues that really matter in real life.

This is just one more of them. I, as much as you don't want to believe it, am not roosting on ideology here. I'm not working a bias into anything. It is what it is.

It's sort of like the treatmemt DTS gets here when making a legitimate non-partisan comment on any state of affairs -- just because people know who you are, they tend to infuse that into anything you say. Because you know I'm a gay liberal -- it becomes impossible for you to believe that anything I say can possibly be untainted. It's a fact of life I've come to accept.

And while I find it entertaining to sit here and argue with you about what I, repeat, I (aka the person who was thinking and typing) meant when thinking and typing something -- it really serves no point. I know what I meant and you can twist it any way you want to, but it doesn't change it. Therefore going further trying to convince you of what I meant is a moot point because you don't know what I meant, and no amount of my explaining is apparently going to change that. Which actually sounds a lot like a bias, now that you bring that word up. So I won't pursue it with you any further.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

The only thing in that entire quote that has anything to do with the Christian right is the last line, and so I will address that.

It has nothing to do with how they think -- it is how I view the priorities of the Christian right and their politics.

Note that this whole uproar is really only coming from the far Christian right. There aren't a whole lot of liberals complaining that this man wants to take his ceremonial oath on the Quran, because there is no harm in it unless it's a religious objection. With that said, I liken it to gay marriage. I view their priorities, as projected in the press releases they put out, the columns they write, and the legislation they champion - as skewed.

Be against gay marriage, totally their prerogative. But don't focus all of the group's political clout on that issue when kids are starving and uninsured. Go ahead and be wildly afraid that ONE Muslim congressman is going to somehow overthrow the Constitution and waste resources attacking him when poverty runs rampant in the very same peoples' backyards.

That to me, is the classic case of the Christian right chasing stupid issues that don't REALLY affect anyone, or anyone's way of life -- when the proverbial "bigger fish to fry" are sitting there totally untouched because the group's political energy and clout is being squandered worrying about the little fish, aka gay marriage and now this ridiculous little flap over the Quran.


Now, if you still believe I am attempting to speak for the Christian right, please let me know where and I can clarify further because it's the furthest from what I am trying to do. I hope this cleared that up.

As I said before, I don't think the main issue is that the guy wants to take his oath on the Quran. That's not what really concerns people. What really concerns people's is what this guy's true views are. People are wondering if this guy has the same views as the groups he assocites with. I guess you can say that it's not important if he has extreme views because he is only man and he won't be able to have an effect on Congress. You could say that. But I don't think you would be saying that if this guy was a Christian with ties to the KKK or some other extreme groups. People would be very concerned and they would have a right to be. I don't know why you're giving this guy a free pass just because he is a Muslim.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

If you want to read the Christian message board I am on, I'd be happy to PM you the link. They are the Christian right. They are certainly a good representation of the demographic.

A quick search on that forum for any of the issues that I would consider the "small fish" would show that any of those issues eat up more of their time and more of their energy than any of the issues that really matter in real life.

This is just one more of them. I, as much as you don't want to believe it, am not roosting on ideology here. I'm not working a bias into anything. It is what it is.

It's sort of like the treatmemt DTS gets here when making a legitimate non-partisan comment on any state of affairs -- just because people know who you are, they tend to infuse that into anything you say. Because you know I'm a gay liberal -- it becomes impossible for you to believe that anything I say can possibly be untainted. It's a fact of life I've come to accept.

And while I find it entertaining to sit here and argue with you about what I, repeat, I (aka the person who was thinking and typing) meant when thinking and typing something -- it really serves no point. I know what I meant and you can twist it any way you want to, but it doesn't change it. Therefore going further trying to convince you of what I meant is a moot point because you don't know what I meant, and no amount of my explaining is apparently going to change that. Which actually sounds a lot like a bias, now that you bring that word up. So I won't pursue it with you any further.

Wow..a 400 word answer to a simple question! So send the link already! I only asked you how you could speak for the right when you dont espouse what they teach...I didnt know you were gay until yesterday and frankly it doesnt matter to me. What does matter to me is that you are a young man with obvious energy, but you use voluminous answers for comon questions(and to state your position) My problem is you don't appear to understand what you're talking about,but you still keep spouting long answers. Hit the high spots..so this can progress!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Hummm....I realize that the writer here is throwing out broad examples but that's an interesting group..."gay, liberal, Muslim, Rastafarian"....the last two are religions and their members are rather homogeneous in beliefs, especially related to "religious topics" but gays and liberals...well, not so much, especially gays who tend to cover the entire spectrum of philosophic and religious thought....so, why include them in such a listing?? Another "interesting" aspect here is the lead in..."you can be whatever you want to...". Gosh, it sure sounds like you are saying that a person is gay because they want to be or it's a matter of choice on their part....interesting!

Somer: I think you're projecting...Brian said he was gay and liberal,I'm not zoning in on that. This is America..you can be what you want to be. Doesn't a person choose their lifestyle? Explain.please...

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Somer: I think you're projecting...Brian said he was gay and liberal,I'm not zoning in on that. This is America..you can be what you want to be. Doesn't a person choose their lifestyle? Explain.please...

So...you are clearly stating here that you believe a person chooses to be gay! Is that correct?

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

So...you are clearly stating here that you believe a person chooses to be gay! Is that correct?

At the other end..you're saying gays are born that way?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Wow..a 400 word answer to a simple question! So send the link already! I only asked you how you could speak for the right when you dont espouse what they teach...I didnt know you were gay until yesterday and frankly it doesnt matter to me. What does matter to me is that you are a young man with obvious energy, but you use voluminous answers for comon questions(and to state your position) My problem is you don't appear to understand what you're talking about,but you still keep spouting long answers. Hit the high spots..so this can progress!

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I don't claim to speak for them, I never had, I never will. I'm not sure what part of my post you interpreted as such a claim -- but whichever part it was...it was terribly misinterpreted.

HA! I tried the short answer and you weren't having ANY of it!

Ready, we'll do it again...

I don't speak for them. I have never claimed to. And I never will.

High notes hit. Basically the conversation was over the middle of the last page then.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

HA! I tried the short answer and you weren't having ANY of it!

Ready, we'll do it again...

I don't speak for them. I have never claimed to. And I never will.

High notes hit. Basically the conversation was over the middle of the last page then.

Brian: use the private message link to send me this link(up in the right hand corner) and I'll visit them Thanks

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

At the other end..you're saying gays are born that way?

So...you accuse people of generalizing your beliefs yet when asked a direct question, you answer with a question! I won't dodge your's...yes, I believe that folk's sexual identity is NOT a matter of choice! Whether a newborn is sexually imprinted or whether there are predispositions which may be triggered by environment I do not know...genetic research will eventually definitively answer that question, but I don't recall deciding I would be a heterosexual...do you?

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

So...you accuse people of generalizing your beliefs yet when asked a direct question, you answer with a question! I won't dodge your's...yes, I believe that folk's sexual identity is NOT a matter of choice! Whether a newborn is sexually imprinted or whether there are predispositions which may be triggered by environment I do not know...genetic research will eventually definitively answer that question, but I don't recall deciding I would be a heterosexual...do you?

Somer: you're kinda cranky today,buddy! I'm not dodgeing,,just parrying. I do believe gays are made, not born. There have been various studies and the like..none that I can readily bring to mind. I never thought about being anything other hetero, altho there were apparent influences attempting to sway my judgement several times in my life. I'm not ready to fight to the death on this one ...so we'll just disagree. Best to you Timm PS..when did anyone say anything about my beliefs?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Somer: you're kinda cranky today,buddy! I'm not dodgeing,,just parrying. I do believe gays are made, not born. There have been various studies and the like..none that I can readily bring to mind. I never thought about being anything other hetero, altho there were apparent influences attempting to sway my judgement several times in my life. I'm not ready to fight to the death on this one ...so we'll just disagree. Best to you Timm PS..when did anyone say anything about my beliefs?

Cranky? This is me in a good mood...I finally got a car today! You did say that you considered yourself a fundamentalist Christian didn't you? And then you got cranky at Brian for speaking to the beliefs of same...
There are no studies that show definitively whether this is nature or nurture that I know of...

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Cranky? This is me in a good mood...I finally got a car today! You did say that you considered yourself a fundamentalist Christian didn't you? And then you got cranky at Brian for speaking to the beliefs of same...
There are no studies that show definitively whether this is nature or nurture that I know of...

Somer: that's great about the car! I gave Brian a bad time because he purported to know the mind of a Fundamentalist Christian,of which he is not! That would be like me saying I know the beliefs and ways of the Wiccans! I agree with you about the studies,just shared my experiences. BEST Timm

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Cranky? This is me in a good mood...I finally got a car today! You did say that you considered yourself a fundamentalist Christian didn't you? And then you got cranky at Brian for speaking to the beliefs of same...
There are no studies that show definitively whether this is nature or nurture that I know of...

I think they have proven that there is a genetic component in most cases. I believe they discovered that a certain chromosome in the brain is different in gay people. I'll see if I can find an article about it.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think they have proven that there is a genetic component in most cases. I believe they discovered that a certain chromosome in the brain is different in gay people. I'll see if I can find an article about it.

Here is an article that provides research that shows a genetic component.

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...out531088.html

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

I gave Brian a bad time because he purported to know the mind of a Fundamentalist Christian,of which he is not!

I DID NOT! I DID NOT! I DID NOT!



Really though, I didn't.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Here is an article that provides research that shows a genetic component.

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...out531088.html

I wouldn't hang my hat on this just yet....needs alot more research.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I DID NOT! I DID NOT! I DID NOT!



Really though, I didn't.

OH JOY!...when you say this is a classic case of "something" you are indeed purporting to know it! Please say that you understand this and you were just pulling my leg!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

OH JOY!...when you say this is a classic case of "something" you are indeed purporting to know it! Please say that you understand this and you were just pulling my leg!

OH lord, I did promise to stop entertaining you on this one.

I then explained perfectly well that it was a classic case of what I saw as their political and social agenda, which, according to their press releases and supported legislation.....it is -- worry about the little fish while the big ones swim right on by,

we're going to have to agree to not see eye to eye on what I meant, because I've explained it roughly a half-dozen times and you don't get it. and you are still reading what I wrote how you see it, not how I've explained that I've meant it, and I'm a bit dissappointed that you can't take me at my word on that.

I tend to think that this is more your being stubborn for fun than any actual problem on my part, but for the sake of being sporting I'm willing to just agree to disagree.