What if Invasor and Bernardini split?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by boswd

I know it is very bizarre they have three rankings one for money, one that includes every division and one for the Classic division. Now how can Lava Man be number one inthe one for everybody, the one you just posted but be number 3 in the Classic divison.

I don't think it is bizarre. It makes sense. If they had to give out HOY today then Lava Man would win it. However, when they are picking who will actually win the Classic he is only the third choice. I pretty much agree.

[Gander]

I dont agree that Invasor should be ranked above Lava Man. Why exactly? As much as people like to bash the company Lava Man has been keeping, Invasor hasnt exactly defeated world beaters either. Should be a fun bunch of weeks leading up to the BC.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Gander

I dont agree that Invasor should be ranked above Lava Man. Why exactly? As much as people like to bash the company Lava Man has been keeping, Invasor hasnt exactly defeated world beaters either. Should be a fun bunch of weeks leading up to the BC.

I completely agree with this Gander on all accounts. A lot of people don't give Lava Man the credit he deserves.

With that being said, I will be surprised if Bernardini doesn't win his next two races because he is a freaking monster/superhorse. But, it is horse racing and anything can happen. I would just love it if either Bernardini, Lava Man, or Sun King wins the Classic (I'm huge fans of all three of these horses!)

[boswd]

[quote=SniperSB23]I don't think it is bizarre. It makes sense. If they had to give out HOY today then Lava Man would win it. However, when they are picking who will actually win the Classic he is only the third choice. I pretty much agree.[/QUOTE

Then what basis are they using to rank the poll that includes all the horses that has Lava Man #1? If he is #1 in that poll shouldn't he be #1 in the poll that ranks just the classic division as well?

[boswd]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I completely agree with this Gander on all accounts. A lot of people don't give Lava Man the credit he deserves.

With that being said, I will be surprised if Bernardini doesn't win his next two races because he is a freaking monster/superhorse. But, it is horse racing and anything can happen. I would just love it if either Bernardini, Lava Man, or Sun King wins the Classic (I'm huge fans of all three of these horses!)

No, I don't agree overall with Gander. I think alot of people know what kind of horse Lava Man is. He has his detractors out here in East because he has stayed home. but I don't blame his connections there are three Great Grade I's at a million dollars a race and at a 1 1/4. I think he is the feel good story of the year besides Barbaro, former claimer turned Grade I millionaire. I hope he stays healthy and we have a real battle between the Big Three on BCC. I am though a huge Invasor fan. He has gotten less hype ,since the Bernardini hype machine has started, as well. That's not to say Bernardini doen't deserve it!!!!!

[Gander]

Invasor has gotten plenty of press here in NY. Its as if he has beaten some monsters when really who has he beaten...Sun King, a very poor representation of Flower Alley, Wanderin Boy, Wild Dessert, Andromedas Hero.
I dont consider any of these horses all that much better than the horses Lava Man has beaten.

Nice horse? Sure. Perhaps better than I think (wouldnt be the first or second time I was wrong about a horse), but to rank him higher than Lava Man at this juncture of the year based on beating those horses...I cant agree with.

If he beats Bernardini or Lava Man I will admit I am an idiot. I just dont think he will.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Gander

Invasor has gotten plenty of press here in NY. Its as if he has beaten some monsters when really who has he beaten...Sun King, a very poor representation of Flower Alley, Wanderin Boy, Wild Dessert, Andromedas Hero.
I dont consider any of these horses all that much better than the horses Lava Man has beaten.

Nice horse? Sure. Perhaps better than I think (wouldnt be the first or second time I was wrong about a horse), but to rank him higher than Lava Man at this juncture of the year based on beating those horses...I cant agree with.

If he beats Bernardini or Lava Man I will admit I am an idiot. I just dont think he will.

Again, I agree. We'll know more about Invasor in the JCGC. I know that Lava Man is the goods; he just may not be a good shipper. I think that he will get beaten in the Classic based on that fact. If Invasor and Lava Man faced each other out west and Invasor was a good shipper (which I think that he is?), I am very confident that Lava Man would win. That is not to take anything away from Invasor because he is an extremely nice animal and I think that he beat a dramatically improved Sun King in the Woodward.

[Gander]

Exacltly how many races has Lava Man done so horribly in shipping? 2?
The Jockey Club in which there was one horse (Borrego) who did any real running. So that was a throwout for many horses including Flower Alley.
The other race was the Japan race. How many successful horses ship from the US to Japan? Not many.

So if you are going by just those 2 races, which I think is a bad idea, then yes Lava Man is a horrible shipper. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and quite frankly the only horse he has to beat in my opinion is Bernardini.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Gander

Exacltly how many races has Lava Man done so horribly in shipping? 2?
The Jockey Club in which there was one horse (Borrego) who did any real running. So that was a throwout for many horses including Flower Alley.
The other race was the Japan race. How many successful horses ship from the US to Japan? Not many.

So if you are going by just those 2 races, which I think is a bad idea, then yes Lava Man is a horrible shipper. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and quite frankly the only horse he has to beat in my opinion is Bernardini.

Well, those are the only two races in which has shipped out of Cali (that I know of unless he shipped when he was a claimer), and so based on those two performances, I have to acknowledge the fact that he may not be a good shipper. I just don't have anything else to go by. In fact, he may be a good shipper and it is just a coincidence that he didn't perform well in the two races in which he shipped. I know that most, if not all, horses don't ship successfully from the US to Japan. Also, he could have had a legitimate excuse as to why he didn't perform well in the JCGC last year. Quite frankly, I think that the horse was tired from three monstrous back to back performances. I know that he wasn't himself in that race. Do you know if they found any physical ailments with him after that race?

If Lava Man does win the BC Classic, it would be one of the greatest stories ever in the history of the sport. I would be fanatic if he won because I love the horse! But if he doesn't perform well at all in the BCC, then it is most likely because he isn't a good shipper. Of course, we'll probably have some on this message board saying that he just isn't good enough.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Gander

Exacltly how many races has Lava Man done so horribly in shipping? 2?
The Jockey Club in which there was one horse (Borrego) who did any real running. So that was a throwout for many horses including Flower Alley.
The other race was the Japan race. How many successful horses ship from the US to Japan? Not many.

So if you are going by just those 2 races, which I think is a bad idea, then yes Lava Man is a horrible shipper. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and quite frankly the only horse he has to beat in my opinion is Bernardini.

And let's not forget Lava Man shed his frog in the Japan race and they said he left a bloody trail coming off the track, that is a painful occurence for a horse, they don't all do it, but when they do it's a yucky mess.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Gander

Invasor has gotten plenty of press here in NY. Its as if he has beaten some monsters when really who has he beaten...Sun King, a very poor representation of Flower Alley, Wanderin Boy, Wild Dessert, Andromedas Hero.
I dont consider any of these horses all that much better than the horses Lava Man has beaten.

Nice horse? Sure. Perhaps better than I think (wouldnt be the first or second time I was wrong about a horse), but to rank him higher than Lava Man at this juncture of the year based on beating those horses...I cant agree with.

If he beats Bernardini or Lava Man I will admit I am an idiot. I just dont think he will.

Oh he did get alot of Press especially after the Whitney, but after that it has been all Bernardini.
I guess you can say the same about Lava Man, hasn't beaten any world beaters himself. I do agree Lava Man should be number one but fair is fair it's not exactly that tough out on West either.

[SniperSB23]

Lava Man also tanked when he ran the Sunshine Millions at Gulfstream. So it has been three times out of California with those three races being the three biggest defeats of his life in beaten margins.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Well, those are the only two races in which has shipped out of Cali (that I know of unless he shipped when he was a claimer), and so based on those two performances, I have to acknowledge the fact that he may not be a good shipper. I just don't have anything else to go by. In fact, he may be a good shipper and it is just a coincidence that he didn't perform well in the two races in which he shipped. I know that most, if not all, horses don't ship successfully from the US to Japan. Also, he could have had a legitimate excuse as to why he didn't perform well in the JCGC last year. Quite frankly, I think that the horse was tired from three monstrous back to back performances. I know that he wasn't himself in that race. Do you know if they found any physical ailments with him after that race?

If Lava Man does win the BC Classic, it would be one of the greatest stories ever in the history of the sport. I would be fanatic if he won because I love the horse! But if he doesn't perform well at all in the BCC, then it is most likely because he isn't a good shipper. Of course, we'll probably have some on this message board saying that he just isn't good enough.

lava man shipped to japan after staggering down the lane in jcgc, apparently not in great shape, didn't ship well in, and then they tried to throw him out of the pan and into the fire in japan. it's why he'll ship into churchill with plenty of time to get acclimated.

the old schoolers always said either ship and race IMMEDIATELY, or ship in three weeks ahead of the race. ship in a few days ahead of time, a bad shipper will have just enough time to develop problems and skunk up the place in the race. so go three weeks out, time to get thru all those nagging things brought on by travel.

besides, he at least came back from japan better than ever, hasn't missed a beat since--how many dubai and back shippers can say the same??

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Danzig2

lava man shipped to japan after staggering down the lane in jcgc, apparently not in great shape, didn't ship well in, and then they tried to throw him out of the pan and into the fire in japan. it's why he'll ship into churchill with plenty of time to get acclimated.

the old schoolers always said either ship and race IMMEDIATELY, or ship in three weeks ahead of the race. ship in a few days ahead of time, a bad shipper will have just enough time to develop problems and skunk up the place in the race. so go three weeks out, time to get thru all those nagging things brought on by travel.

besides, he at least came back from japan better than ever, hasn't missed a beat since--how many dubai and back shippers can say the same??

Invasor seems to be doing all right after shipping in from his debacle in Dubai

[Gander]

Yes hes doing very well. 3 wins since Dubai. He needs to step it up to Bernardini, plain and simple. Beating the Sun King by a head bob doesnt exactly translate to beating maybe the best horse we've seen in many a moons. I wasnt really that impressed with this year's Suburban field. Andromedas Hero is grade 3 material at best and Wild Dessert is getting to be very overrated. I think Invasor has a solid shot to run 2nd in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and maybe 3rd in the BC Classic.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Gander

Yes hes doing very well. 3 wins since Dubai. He needs to step it up to Bernardini, plain and simple. Beating the Sun King by a head bob doesnt exactly translate to beating maybe the best horse we've seen in many a moons. I wasnt really that impressed with this year's Suburban field. Andromedas Hero is grade 3 material at best and Wild Dessert is getting to be very overrated. I think Invasor has a solid shot to run 2nd in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and maybe 3rd in the BC Classic.

And that is the beuty of the Sport. It is a wait and see. We can do all the talking we want but it is the horses that will have the finally say. I have not jump off the Invasor bandwagon yet. I think he proved something in gutting it out against Sun King. I can not wait for the JCGC. Race of the year thus far!!!!!!!!!!

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Gander

Yes hes doing very well. 3 wins since Dubai. He needs to step it up to Bernardini, plain and simple. Beating the Sun King by a head bob doesnt exactly translate to beating maybe the best horse we've seen in many a moons. I wasnt really that impressed with this year's Suburban field. Andromedas Hero is grade 3 material at best and Wild Dessert is getting to be very overrated. I think Invasor has a solid shot to run 2nd in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and maybe 3rd in the BC Classic.

But my question is who is he supposed to be beating? I have been on a few boards and have heard all the detractors of all of the Big 3. Lava Man - Has beaten nobody out on the West Coast, needs to ship out. Why? He is a West Coast Horse and is racing in the major races on the West Coast. Invasor - Has beaten nobody on the East. Who is he supposed to be beating, who is he ducking? has raced in all the major Grade I's on the East Coast since spring. Bernardini - Beat tired horses and a broken down Barbaro in the Preakness. Raced against nobody's in the Jim Dandy and Travers besides a hurt BGC. Is it his fault Bro. Derke and SNS went into hiding along with Bafferts trio. Is it his fault that they decided to duck him in favor of some crap Grade III at Del Mar? The bottom line is the horses have showed up to their respective main events in the spring and summer. And have won each time.

Now to the detractors of any of these horses, I ask, who were they supposed to be beating?

Originally Posted by boswd

Invasor seems to be doing all right after shipping in from his debacle in Dubai

yeah, i know it, been giving him props for it too!! he's another rarity. we've seen a lot of those this year, yet every horse has his detractors.

[Gander]

BOSWD, I agree with everything your saying. I was playing devil's advocate with Invasor, simply because I am sick of people dissing Lava Man by way of the competition he has faced. These same people act as if Invasor or Bernardini have been beaten world class horses. The fact of that matter is all 3 horses have beaten who they have had to beat and we are in for one hell of an Oct 7th and BC! Enjoy. Our sport gets knocked around enough and now that we hava a very eagerly awaited BC, we should be excited!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

As we all know in this game, just because a horse beats another horse once doesn't mean the results will be the same the next time they square off. Outside of the Lava Man fans everyone almost seems to have accepted that whoever wins the JCGC between Invasor and Bernardini will also win the Classic. What happens if they split the two races and Lava Man is off the board in the Classic? Who is your HOY? Whoever wins the Classic by default? Or would you factor in the trip in both races to see who had a more valid excuse for their loss?

Invasor has as much chance of beating Bernardini as I have of beating Tiger Woods in an 18 hole match.