Chop Chop moves tack to SoCal

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Gryder and Arroyo are not front and center. Neither of them are even in the top 10 in the standings out Del Mar. Desormeaux, on the other hand, who couldn't get arested in Southern California, is right up there in the top 5 at Saratoga.

You need to get your facts straight.

Okay, you need to learn how to read before you correct anyone else's "facts". Gryder is in the top ten LOL


This is the top ten in Del Mar right now:

Espinoza
Nakatani
Garcia
Solis
Michael Baze
John Court
David Cohen
tyler Baze
David Flores
Aaron Gryder

Now lets look at the top ten at Saratoga:

C. Velasquez
G Gomez
E Prado
J Castellano
J Velasquez
E Coa
K Desormeaux
J Leparoux
F Jara

Notables not making the top ten at Saratoga include:

Ramon Dominguez, Richard Migliore, Jose Santos, Shaun Bridgmahon, Mike Luzzi



How many hall of famers are in those names in So Cal? How many big rides have those guys had outside of Nakatani, Espinoza, Solis and Flores?

Now compare that to the guys in NY.

As far Desormeaux goes, his problems in So cal were more of a result of politics than his riding ability.

Look at it objectively and you will see that it isnt even close.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, you need to learn how to read before you correct anyone else's "facts". Gryder is in the top ten LOL


This is the top ten in Del Mar right now:

Espinoza
Nakatani
Garcia
Solis
Michael Baze
John Court
David Cohen
tyler Baze
David Flores
Aaron Gryder

Now lets look at the top ten at Saratoga:

C. Velasquez
G Gomez
E Prado
J Castellano
J Velasquez
E Coa
K Desormeaux
J Leparoux
F Jara

Notables not making the top ten at Saratoga include:

Ramon Dominguez, Richard Migliore, Jose Santos, Shaun Bridgmahon, Mike Luzzi



How many hall of famers are in those names in So Cal? How many big rides have those guys had outside of Nakatani, Espinoza, Solis and Flores?

Now compare that to the guys in NY.

As far Desormeaux goes, his problems in So cal were more of a result of politics than his riding ability.

Look at it objectively and you will see that it isnt even close.

I was looking at drf.com's from the Monday standings which was only updated through Friday. Desormeaux was in 3rd at the time. I knew that a couple of the guys behind him had won a few and passed him. That's why I said top 5. Even with the upated standings, Desormeaux is still doing better in New York than either of the other two guys are doing in California. What evidence do you have that Desormeaux's problems in Southern California were a result of politics? Are you in the business? Maybe you can enlighten me about the politics out here. I've only been in the business out here for over 20 years. It wasn't politics. There were just a lot of riders that were better than him.

[Rupert Pupkin]

There is no question that the Southern Cal jockey colony has taken a hit lately with Gomez and Rene Douglas both having left. In addition, P Val is sidelined indefinitely. But last year when we had Gomez, P Val, Espinoza, Douglas, Nakatani, etc. our colony was extremely strong. I think that Tyler Baze and David Flores could ride anywhere. I look for things to pick up for these guys again.

At this time last year, there were only two guys in New York who could have done well out here: Jerry Bailey and JV.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I was looking at drf.com's from the Monday standings which was only updated through Friday. Desormeaux was in 3rd at the time. I knew that a couple of the guys behind him had won a few and passed him. That's why I said top 5. Even with the upated standings, Desormeaux is still doing better in New York than either of the other two guys are doing in California. What evidence do you have that Desormeaux's problems in Southern California were a result of politics? Are you in the business? Maybe you can enlighten me about the politics out here. I've only been in the business out here for over 20 years. It wasn't politics. There were just a lot of riders that were better than him.

Okay, you know someone is grasping pretty hard when they have to flaunt their resume' to give credence to a weak argument.

If you want me to google every article ever written about why trainers weren't giving Kent mounts I could do that. Or you can just admit what every informed person knows: that kent had pissed off most of the top trainers and some of the owners and they were tired of giving him second chances.

As someone in the business you should know that Kent was notorious for not riding to instructions. He was notorious for a while for not riding out to the wire. He was notorious for not working hard in the mornings. He would refuse many mounts that he felt had little chance and he was not shy in telling people that their horses werent so good. Trainers, even the ones that liked him, were tired of dealing with him. Of course, you being a big timer in the business and all should know this. Do you want me to produce articles or will you just take my word for it?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

There is no question that the Southern Cal jockey colony has taken a hit lately with Gomez and Rene Douglas both having left. In addition, P Val is sidelined indefinitely. But last year when we had Gomez, P Val, Espinoza, Douglas, Nakatani, etc. our colony was extremely strong. I think that Tyler Baze and David Flores could ride anywhere. I look for things to pick up for these guys again.

At this time last year, there were only two guys in New York who could have done well out here: Jerry Bailey and JV.

Rene Douglas? Douglas wasnt even in the top 5 last year in So Cal. He left because he had no business!!!! And why did he have no business? Politics? You mention Douglas but he isnt even in the same realm as Solis.

But we arent talking about LAST YEAR we are talking about THIS YEAR. YOU made the claim that the colonies are comparable and now you are trying to back off of that preposterous claim.

To say that Bailey and JV are the only two that could have done well out there is a ridiculous claim. They wanted Bejarano to come out for the longest time. Castellano would do extremely well. You dont think Prado would do well? Lets not be silly.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, you need to learn how to read before you correct anyone else's "facts". Gryder is in the top ten LOL

Look at the arrogance of this guy.

Wow. Gryder is in tenth place and Arroyo is in twelfth. I fail to see how that makes these guys front and center in SoCal. Especially with the field sizes.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Look at the arrogance of this guy.

Wow. Gryder is in tenth place and Arroyo is in twelfth. I fail to see how that makes these guys front and center in SoCal. Especially with the field sizes.

Okay, how about Michael Baze then? He wasnt even a third rate east coast jockey and he is also in the top ten in the west. Jon Court? he wasnt even in the top five in kentucky and he is in the top ten in So cal these days.

When i say "front and center" I mean they ride multiple mounts on a dailly basis. Gryder has 67 mounts so far in the del mar meet.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, you know someone is grasping pretty hard when they have to flaunt their resume' to give credence to a weak argument.

If you want me to google every article ever written about why trainers weren't giving Kent mounts I could do that. Or you can just admit what every informed person knows: that kent had pissed off most of the top trainers and some of the owners and they were tired of giving him second chances.

As someone in the business you should know that Kent was notorious for not riding to instructions. He was notorious for a while for not riding out to the wire. He was notorious for not working hard in the mornings. He would refuse many mounts that he felt had little chance and he was not shy in telling people that their horses werent so good. Trainers, even the ones that liked him, were tired of dealing with him. Of course, you being a big timer in the business and all should know this. Do you want me to produce articles or will you just take my word for it?

Yes, go ahead and produce some articles. I will give some credence to your argument if you produce some articles. I still never thought that Kent was in the league of the top riders. Like any decent jockey, he will win most of the time if you put him on the best horse. So will Aaron Gryder, Martin Pedroza, MC Baze, etc. I don't think that any of the top trainers out here think that Desormeaux is as good the top guys. I'll ask a few of them.

With regard to Rene Douglas, you are correct that he left because he was in somewhat of a slump and his business had tailed off. However, it wasn't as if this had been going on for 5 years. He had a little cold streak. I don't remember exactly how long it was but I think it was les than a year. I think he made a mistake leaving so soon. He's a top rider. If he would have stuck around, I think that things would have turned around for him. I think he's a much better rider than Solis. I don't think it's any contest.

[Gander]

To say that Bailey and JV are the only two that could have done well out there is a ridiculous claim. They wanted Bejarano to come out for the longest time. Castellano would do extremely well. You dont think Prado would do well? Lets not be silly.

I agree totally. Castellano and Prado could ride anywhere and do well. Bejarano, I am not so convinced he is as great as everyone else thinks but he could surely hold his own in Southern California if guys like Baze, Cohen and Court can be in the top 10.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, how about Michael Baze then? He wasnt even a third rate east coast jockey and he is also in the top ten in the west. Jon Court? he wasnt even in the top five in kentucky and he is in the top ten in So cal these days.

He's young and improving every day.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

When i say "front and center" I mean they ride multiple mounts on a dailly basis. Gryder has 67 mounts so far in the del mar meet.

Isn't your argument pro-east coast? Then why would you backpedal and say front and center is how many mounts you get, not win? Seriously you don't have to win an argument everytime. You can admit you're wrong from time to time.

Gryder is having an absolutely horrible meet at Del Mar. He's winning at about an 8% clip in a depleted jockey colony.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Gander

To say that Bailey and JV are the only two that could have done well out there is a ridiculous claim. They wanted Bejarano to come out for the longest time. Castellano would do extremely well. You dont think Prado would do well? Lets not be silly.

I agree totally. Castellano and Prado could ride anywhere and do well. Bejarano, I am not so convinced he is as great as everyone else thinks but he could surely hold his own in Southern California if guys like Baze, Cohen and Court can be in the top 10.

I agree with you guys about Jon Court. He is nothing special. He's certainly not a top rider. But neither are most of the guys in New York. I've seen plenty of guys over the years that were considered top riders back East and a lot of these guys couldn't ride at all. Dating back to the early 1980s, I saw so many of these guys come out here and I couldn't belive how bad they were. I was shocked that these guys were so successful back East. A couple of guys that come to mind are Jeff Fell and Randy Romero. Mike Smith is certainly a much better rider than Fell or Romero, but Smith is not in the league of Stevens, McCarron, Delahoussaye, P Val, Pincay, Espinoza, etc. Yet I think Mike Smith was the leading rider in New York for a while back in the 1990s. Chavez was the leading rider back there for a while. Typically the 7th or 8th best jockey out here is better than the leading rider back there. It was like that for over 15 years. You would have guys like Chavez leading the standings back there, yet he wouldn't have even been in the top 10 out west. It's finally starting to change, but just because a guy is a top rider back there, it doesn't make him a great jockey. That guy Ramon Dominguez looks terrible coming down the stretch. He can't even ride and whip a horse at the same time. He doesn't exactly look athletic out there.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, go ahead and produce some articles. I will give some credence to your argument if you produce some articles. I still never thought that Kent was in the league of the top riders. Like any decent jockey, he will win most of the time if you put him on the best horse. So will Aaron Gryder, Martin Pedroza, MC Baze, etc. I don't think that any of the top trainers out here think that Desormeaux is as good the top guys. I'll ask a few of them.

With regard to Rene Douglas, you are correct that he left because he was in somewhat of a slump and his business had tailed off. However, it wasn't as if this had been going on for 5 years. He had a little cold streak. I don't remember exactly how long it was but I think it was les than a year. I think he made a mistake leaving so soon. He's a top rider. If he would have stuck around, I think that things would have turned around for him. I think he's a much better rider than Solis. I don't think it's any contest.

http://www.webcom.com/~alauck/golden.../golden84.html

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

He's young and improving every day.



Isn't your argument pro-east coast? Then why would you backpedal and say front and center is how many mounts you get, not win? Seriously you don't have to win an argument everytime. You can admit you're wrong from time to time.

Gryder is having an absolutely horrible meet at Del Mar. He's winning at about an 8% clip in a depleted jockey colony.

How does me saying that come away from what i originally said? Gryder won at a 10% clip at Santa Anita this spring as well and he did so with over 300 mounts. That is doing much better than he did out east.

What is their to admit? Do you even have a point?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree with you guys about Jon Court. He is nothing special. He's certainly not a top rider. But neither are most of the guys in New York. I've seen plenty of guys over the years that were considered top riders back East and a lot of these guys couldn't ride at all. Dating back to the early 1980s, I saw so many of these guys come out here and I couldn't belive how bad they were. I was shocked that these guys were so successful back East. A couple of guys that come to mind are Jeff Fell and Randy Romero. Mike Smith is certainly a much better rider than Fell or Romero, but Smith is not in the league of Stevens, McCarron, Delahoussaye, P Val, Pincay, Espinoza, etc. Yet I think Mike Smith was the leading rider in New York for a while back in the 1990s. Chavez was the leading rider back there for a while. Typically the 7th or 8th best jockey out here is better than the leading rider back there. It was like that for over 15 years. You would have guys like Chavez leading the standings back there, yet he wouldn't have even been in the top 10 out west. It's finally starting to change, but just because a guy is a top rider back there, it doesn't make him a great jockey. That guy Ramon Dominguez looks terrible coming down the stretch. He can't even ride and whip a horse at the same time. He doesn't exactly look athletic out there.

I agree with you that the west coast use to have by far a better colony. I have always been a fan of west coast racing. Eddie D is probably my favorite jockey of all time and i dont think anyone can argue that the lineup in So cal in the 90's at times was the greatest ever assembled. Remember- Kent D won a few riding titles with that lineup in tact.

Times have changed. So Cal racing isnt what it use to be and the riders follow the money and the fast horses. That happens to be out east for the most part these days.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How does me saying that come away from what i originally said? Gryder won at a 10% clip at Santa Anita this spring as well and he did so with over 300 mounts. That is doing much better than he did out east.

What is their to admit? Do you even have a point?

Yeah I have a point.

About Gryder...

Between 1998 and 2001, he won four riding titles at Aqueduct, three of them at the inner-track meets. In 1998-’99, he took the title with 53 wins despite missing the last six weeks of the meet due to injuries from a spill. He repeated in the 1999-2000 meet with 94 wins, 32 more than his nearest competitor.

I can't find any stats for him at Belmont and Saratoga but it seems to me like Gryder was one of the top 10 jocks in New York and now is about 10th in California. I'm going to be fair about this and call it a wash.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah I have a point.

About Gryder...

Between 1998 and 2001, he won four riding titles at Aqueduct, three of them at the inner-track meets. In 1998-’99, he took the title with 53 wins despite missing the last six weeks of the meet due to injuries from a spill. He repeated in the 1999-2000 meet with 94 wins, 32 more than his nearest competitor.

I can't find any stats for him at Belmont and Saratoga but it seems to me like Gryder was one of the top 10 jocks in New York and now is about 10th in California. I'm going to be fair about this and call it a wash.

Now there are some misleading stats. If you know anything about NY racing, all of the good jocks are down in gulfstream during the "frozen dirt" meeting at Aqueduct. When they open the big track, half of them are travelling between gulfstream, ny and kentucky.

Winning a Frozen Track meet in NY is akin to winning the riding title at Fairplex. Arroyo has also won a couple of titles there.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Now there are some misleading stats. If you know anything about NY racing, all of the good jocks are down in gulfstream during the "frozen dirt" meeting at Aqueduct. When they open the big track, half of them are travelling between gulfstream, ny and kentucky.

Winning a Frozen Track meet in NY is akin to winning the riding title at Fairplex. Arroyo has also won a couple of titles there.

Then throw out the Hollywood meet in California which most of the top jocks in Cali cut back their mounts. Gryder still finished 10th.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

http://www.webcom.com/~alauck/golden.../golden84.html

First of all, that was his agent talking in the article. His agent was obviously not going to blame Kent's lack of success on a lack of talent. He's going to blame it on a lack of quality horses to ride. It is true that if a half-way decent jockey such as Desormeaux is doing really poorly, it is probably due to a lack of quality mounts which is due to top trainers not wanting to use him. However, that does not mean that top trainers weren't using him because of his attitude. It doesn't say that anywhere in the article. I think the reason they weren't using him was because they didn't think he was riding well.

In addition, the article didn't say anything to confirm your contention that Desormeaux was lazy about coming out in the morning. It actually said the opposite. It said he was coming out more than anyone in the morning. By the way, that article was from around 10 years ago. Twice the Vice was running back in 1995.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah I have a point.

About Gryder...

Between 1998 and 2001, he won four riding titles at Aqueduct, three of them at the inner-track meets. In 1998-’99, he took the title with 53 wins despite missing the last six weeks of the meet due to injuries from a spill. He repeated in the 1999-2000 meet with 94 wins, 32 more than his nearest competitor.

I can't find any stats for him at Belmont and Saratoga but it seems to me like Gryder was one of the top 10 jocks in New York and now is about 10th in California. I'm going to be fair about this and call it a wash.

During the period when Gryder was doing really well in New York, he did well at the big meets too. I don't know if he ever was leading rider at Belmont but he definitely came in the top 5 a few times. I think he even did better than that. I think he finished 2nd or 3rd a few times.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

First of all, that was his agent talking in the article. His agent was obviously not going to blame Kent's lack of success on a lack of talent. He's going to blame it on a lack of quality horses to ride. It is true that if a half-way decent jockey such as Desormeaux is doing really poorly, it is probably due to a lack of quality mounts which is due to top trainers not wanting to use him. However, that does not mean that top trainers weren't using him because of his attitude. It doesn't say that anywhere in the article. I think the reason they weren't using him was because they didn't think he was riding well.

In addition, the article didn't say anything to confirm your contention that Desormeaux was lazy about coming out in the morning. It actually said the opposite. It said he was coming out more than anyone in the morning. By the way, that article was from around 10 years ago. Twice the Vice was running back in 1995.

Will this article do?

http://drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=76803&subs=0&arc=1

New character playing well

By DAVID GRENING
SARATOGA SPRINGS, N.Y. - Despite a resume that included more than 4,500 wins, three Eclipse Awards, and a bust in racing's Hall of Fame, jockey Kent Desormeaux this spring felt the need to reinvent himself. So he picked up his tack and his family, and made the cross-country trek from Southern California to New York.
Thus far, Desormeaux couldn't be happier with the results. Coming off a Belmont meet where he won 36 races - good enough for a fifth-place tie in the standings - Desormeaux enters his first full Saratoga meet riding high and full of confidence that he can return to the heights he achieved early in his career.

"I'm just excited things are working out the way I thought they would," Desormeaux said last week in the Belmont Park jockeys' room. "Just the fact I'm riding again - I'm really happy I'm riding six or seven every day. I'm just really happy. I'm having fun again."

Desormeaux, who has won two Kentucky Derbies and rode the favorite for this year's Derby, Sweetnorthernsaint, said he had developed a bad reputation in Southern California as someone who did not want to ride cheap horses, and that left him in the jocks' room too much.

"I was so bored and having to work harder and harder at maintaining my weight because I wasn't riding," Desormeaux said. "What I was riding was good, don't get me wrong. I'd ride two a day and one of them would win. It just wasn't enough. I didn't have enough business.

"I built the wrong character. I couldn't break the mold," Desormeaux added. "I would come by the barn and the guys would say, 'Oh, I don't have one good enough for you to ride.' I said, 'What? I'll ride the hair off a $10,000 claimer if you give me the chance.' So I was trying to break that character. I came to New York to reinvent myself."

Desormeaux began riding in New York in late March when Aqueduct's main track opened. He finished with 13 wins, which was good enough for a third-place tie in the jockey standings. He won his only New York stakes during that meet, the Grade 2 Comely aboard Miraculous Miss.

His work ethic caught the eye of agent Mike Sellito, who parted ways with Mike Smith to take over Desormeaux's book in mid-June.

"He's a great guy to work for," Sellito said. "He's a workaholic in the mornings. There's mornings he worked eight or nine horses. That's unheard of for a Hall of Fame jockey."

Sellito was not the only one to notice a change in Desormeaux. Garrett Gomez, who has ridden in Southern California the past few years with Desormeaux, also sees it.




"His attitude's changed a little bit," said Gomez, who is also riding his first Saratoga meet. "It seems like he's a little more serious, a little more focused and stuff like that. It's good to see. Maybe he just needed a change, I don't know."

Bobby Frankel, a Hall of Fame trainer, said he wasn't using Desormeaux out West. He has used him on several horses here, including three that won. Frankel named Desormeaux on two live runners for Wednesday's opening-day card, including the Grade 1 winner I'm the Tiger.

"He's a good rider," Frankel said. "Horses run for him, for sure. He's working hard now. He's a good athlete, he takes care of himself, he's still going."

Jimmy Jerkens has used Desormeaux a bit, and likes his aggressiveness. Jerkens will use Desormeaux on Oh So Awesome, a longshot in Saturday's $500,000 Jim Dandy.

"He makes things happen," Jerkens said.

Sellito admits that Desormeaux's stakes business is lacking, but is pleased with his day-to-day business. Desormeaux rode winners for 21 different trainers at Belmont. Desormeaux had seven calls on Wednesday and five on Thursday and hopes that support continues throughout the meet.

"I'm hopeful to make it back to the top tier [of] riders, and having a good Saratoga meet could go a long way toward doing that," Desormeaux said.

Desormeaux said that he is still battling his weight, though it's not for a lack of work.

"It's got everything to do with age and the body, and I thought the food was good in California, but man, it's better here," Desormeaux said. "Even the mom-and-pop Italian shop on the corner; that food is 100 miles better. Italian food here is better than it is in Italy."