This One's for Phil goes nuts...

[pweizer]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

He did take a 6yo Meisques Approval, who was an Overnight Stake horse for BILL MOTT and turn him into a Breeders Cup Champ. He crushed a good group of horses that day. Had he faced the same group the year before, he wouldve been drowned.

Miesque's Approval had won several stakes that year leading up to the Breeder's Cup starting with the Sunshine Millions Turf in January. He won the Eclipse that year because of the whole campaign. It is not like that win came from no where.

Paul

[Linny]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

He did take a 6yo Meisques Approval, who was an Overnight Stake horse for BILL MOTT and turn him into a Breeders Cup Champ. He crushed a good group of horses that day. Had he faced the same group the year before, he wouldve been drowned.

MA was a very good 3yo grasser but had tailed off by the time Wolfson got him. He was offered for a $50k tag in the late fall of the year prior to his Mile win. I think it was his only race for a tag. That hardly makes him a "claimer" in the usual sense. Like how when Charismatic won the Derby and was hailed as a "former claimer." That said, I do agree that Wolfson overall, belongs in this category.

[MISTERGEE]

dont forget Ikigai, who is also now a world beater that he took over, as far as This ones for Phil, Kathleen O connell has been training for about 30 years and is a very adequate horsewomen. there probably nothing she doesnt know about horses and their training. but now her and the likes of her are either idiots or the rest is as obvious as we all know it is, and even though we may all be bothered by it i guess for now as some have said just use it in your handicapping and hope for the best

[The Indomitable DrugS]

As for the 117 figure... it looks pretty cut and dry.

I think CJ pretty much covered the straight forward obvious way to look at it. Here's more of an esoteric way...

When Lost in the Fog won the '05 Sunshine Million Dash at GP - he ran 0.44 seconds faster than Alix M did in the F & M dirt sprint at the same distance 30 minutes later.

By comparison, This Ones for Phil ran 1.45 seconds faster than High Resolve did in the F & M dirt sprint one hour later.

Both Alix M. and High Resolve got 96 Beyers for those wins. LITF got a 102 and TOfP got a 117 .. as one full second at 6fs equals 15 Beyer points.

If you want to try and make a case that the track got much slower after TOfP ran ... well, thats a hard case to make, because the previous dirt races earlier on in the card all could have been timed with a sundial.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

It's not a big deal for cappers, but it would be a lot more fun to cap the horse(than to cap the trainer.) Uh, the people who are gunna have to change this are the ones that have the most to lose(other trainers and owners.) BTW, is Ramsey giving horses to Dutrow yet?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Blistering column by Andy Beyer in DRF about work of Dutrow vis a vis the performance of 'Phil'. Indicts other 'supertrainers' as well.. Important read.

Latest supertrainer feat raises suspicion
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

Help us Steve please! Are you Milk or are you Meat? If you are going to defend guys like Dutrow and Wolfson and not call them out then why would you suggest Beyer's article is an important read?

Can you agree with Beyer and not denounce the likes of the chemists mentioned?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Help us Steve please! Are you Milk or are you Meat? If you are going to defend guys like Dutrow and Wolfson and not call them out then why would you suggest Beyer's article is an important read?

Can you agree with Beyer and not denounce the likes of the chemists mentioned?

I won't pretend I know what is going on in specific barns with specific horses. I don't consider it my job to indict or defend, so in answer to your question, I'm 'parve'. You heard me ask direct questions of Wolfson yesterday about 'move-up performance' and you heard his responses. Find another medium in the game where the questions are even asked..

I know some guys are taking advantages and pressing the envelope and I know others are using every skill a horseman has to maximize performance legally. I'm sure that some efforts that many label 'cheating' are actually horsemanship, and others identified as horsemanship are likely cheating.

Everyone draws their own conclusions based on their level of knowledge and depth of understanding. I try to add to the information base by bringing out all I can from those that will discuss the subject openly.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Now you know who can replace Larry King (when he kicks it.)

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I won't pretend I know what is going on in specific barns with specific horses. I don't consider it my job to indict or defend, so in answer to your question, I'm 'parve'. You heard me ask direct questions of Wolfson yesterday about 'move-up performance' and you heard his responses. Find another medium in the game where the questions are even asked..

I know some guys are taking advantages and pressing the envelope and I know others are using every skill a horseman has to maximize performance legally. I'm sure that some efforts that many label 'cheating' are actually horsemanship, and others identified as horsemanship are likely cheating.

Everyone draws their own conclusions based on their level of knowledge and depth of understanding. I try to add to the information base by bringing out all I can from those that will discuss the subject openly.

I didnt realize you were Swiss..Sorry my bad

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I didnt realize you were Swiss..Sorry my bad

Actually, I thought it was an odd question. He gave the only answer anybody could(if they're in his situation.)

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Blistering column by Andy Beyer in DRF about work of Dutrow vis a vis the performance of 'Phil'. Indicts other 'supertrainers' as well.. Important read.

Latest supertrainer feat raises suspicion
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

What were the numbers on Ward's Notonthesamepage before his race on 1/3?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

What were the numbers on Ward's Notonthesamepage before his race on 1/3?

They aren't on the same page. Interestingly, all of these fast 3yo's are all racing 6f at Gulfstream.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

They aren't on the same page. Interestingly, all of these fast 3yo's are all racing 6f at Gulfstream.

Where should they be from Beluah?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Where should they be from Beluah?

That wasn't quite where I was going. I was thinking more that maybe there's something with the timing of races there.