Vineyard Haven Sold...

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How is buying the best 2YO in training, after his 2YO season, any kind of accomplishment should the horse win even the KY Derby?

All it shows is that they can outspend everyone and that they lack imagination. Considering their results, for the money they have spent, they need to win two or three Triple Crowns before you could even consider them close to over achieving.

Frankly, they have a lot more to prove after this year's purchase of the breeding rights to Pyro.

I agree, Andy. What I don't get is that they retired Bernardini before we got to see his best (presumably he'd be even better as a 4 year old) so that they could get his foals on the ground ASASP............because the Sheikh really wants a homegrown Derby winner. However, the Sheikh continues to buy up every single promising 2 year old because he also wants to win the Derby ASAP. For this Bernardini and his fellow 3 year olds were retired? They could have continued to run as older horses as long as the Sheikh was going to keep buying 2 year olds left and right.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I agree, Andy. What I don't get is that they retired Bernardini before we got to see his best (presumably he'd be even better as a 4 year old) so that they could get his foals on the ground ASASP............because the Sheikh really wants a homegrown Derby winner. However, the Sheikh continues to buy up every single promising 2 year old because he also wants to win the Derby ASAP. For this Bernardini and his fellow 3 year olds were retired? They could have continued to run as older horses as long as the Sheikh was going to keep buying 2 year olds left and right.

he wants a derby winner any way he can get it. whether it be by breeding or buying, and he can afford to do both. i don't look for him to keep any of his horses running on at four-look at how discreet cat did at four, and that explains why.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

I wonder how much the “offer I couldn’t refuse” was...

I'll be generous and say the next time we see him in the US, it will be in an allowance race at Saratoga...

At 4 years old!

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, I don't. It's also a matter of how much one thinks of the horses that have gone over there. I haven't thought much of the Derby prospects of any of the horses they've sent over before outside of Ruler's Court. Oh, and Discreet Cat. But I don't blame injuries on Dubai as many promising horses that don't go over there get hurt training here. So many people are quick to say that what they are doing doesn't work because they haven't had success yet. Does what Todd Pletcher does work? What about what Bobby Frankel does? For years, Wayne Lukas wasn't winning either. Without the right ammo, nobody can do it and I just personally feel they haven't had the right ammo.

You haven't followed all the horses they have had.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Frankel wins tons more money each year than a lot of trainers. What does he need the Sheik's money for? If I were him, I'd have kept Vineyard Haven and have a chance at the Derby.

Like Hyman Roth, Frankel made money for all his partners in this deal. He played this card brilliantly and intended to sell all along. He waited until the offers were at their highest. He"s unbelievably shrewd.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, I don't. It's also a matter of how much one thinks of the horses that have gone over there. I haven't thought much of the Derby prospects of any of the horses they've sent over before outside of Ruler's Court. Oh, and Discreet Cat. But I don't blame injuries on Dubai as many promising horses that don't go over there get hurt training here. So many people are quick to say that what they are doing doesn't work because they haven't had success yet. Does what Todd Pletcher does work? What about what Bobby Frankel does? For years, Wayne Lukas wasn't winning either. Without the right ammo, nobody can do it and I just personally feel they haven't had the right ammo.

Forget just the 2 year olds that you know about, although I am sure there are many you don't know about. There have seldom been horses that they have gotten that have moved forward after going to them. Discreet Cat came back to the US an absolute mess and not due to injuries. He was light and they didn't even work him for about 2 months once he came back. Henny Hughes was the same. No injuries mind you. They just didn't know what to do with them. Please, at least do some research on the trainer if you are going to be an avowed fan.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Like Hyman Roth, Frankel made money for all his partners in this deal. He played this card brilliantly and intended to sell all along. He waited until the offers were at their highest. He"s unbelievably shrewd.

Nice Hyman Roth reference!.. Baffert is STILL kicking himself for not buying VH when he had the chance. RF made the right move here.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

he wants a derby winner any way he can get it. whether it be by breeding or buying, and he can afford to do both. i don't look for him to keep any of his horses running on at four-look at how discreet cat did at four, and that explains why.

If he had kept Bernardini in training, it very likely would have been a different story. DC obviously had problems and there was no reason for Bernardini to be retired. People used to call Sheikh Mo a sportsman. No way, not for me he's not. What he's doing now is not sportsmanlike either, even though he has the right.

[outofthebox]

So was this the reason Frankel kept him out of the Breeders Cup. For all we know this colt can be a one turn specialist and Frankel did not want to compromise his value if he were to run in the BC and somehow not handle the surface or the distance. Anyway good luck to the Sheik...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Betsy

If he had kept Bernardini in training, it very likely would have been a different story. DC obviously had problems and there was no reason for Bernardini to be retired. People used to call Sheikh Mo a sportsman. No way, not for me he's not. What he's doing now is not sportsmanlike either, even though he has the right.

maybe he would have had success at four, but maybe he wouldn't. it's always a crapshoot with these horses. but, the sheikh didn't need bernardini to run any longer, he wants to breed top horses as well-he's got a real hard on for coolmore, and trying to surpass their breeding program, and he needs all the help he can get in that regard.
so, racing wise, there may have been no need to retire bernardini-but breeding wise, it's another story. he's just as interested, if not more so, in developing the #1 breeding program in the world.

[Quiet Chris]

Frankel is not stupid he knows if Empire Maker can lose, anyone can lose. Take the sure thing. This horse could be hurt and retire by February if something goes wrong. This horse may want nothing to do with 10f.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Like Hyman Roth, Frankel made money for all his partners in this deal. He played this card brilliantly and intended to sell all along. He waited until the offers were at their highest. He"s unbelievably shrewd.

Absolutely, positively, without question. He was "selling" this horse -- and brilliantly -- he was selling it to the buyer before the buyer even made an offer.

Eric

[cmorioles]

I'm going to check with Abe before commenting.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Forget just the 2 year olds that you know about, although I am sure there are many you don't know about. There have seldom been horses that they have gotten that have moved forward after going to them. Discreet Cat came back to the US an absolute mess and not due to injuries. He was light and they didn't even work him for about 2 months once he came back. Henny Hughes was the same. No injuries mind you. They just didn't know what to do with them. Please, at least do some research on the trainer if you are going to be an avowed fan.

Henny Hughes returned and won a gr three race in NJ before winning the gr one King's Bishop and the gr one Vosburgh over older horses. Discreet Cat came back and won the gr two Jerome then beat older in the gr one Cigar Mile, nearly setting a track and world record in the process. Please, at least present better examples of failures if you are going to tell me where my opinion is wrong.

Henny Hughes never had a shot in hell to win the Derby. What he did have a chance to be was the best 3yo sprinter in the country, if not the best sprinter period and it's arguable that he still turned out to be both. Discreet Cat probably wasn't getting 10f on his best days either so to classify them both as failures because they didn't come back here and win the Derby is a bit silly to me.

Maybe the analogy to Pletcher or Frankel is silly. But the point is that even doing things the conventional way is not a guarantee to success. I don't think it's fair to say that the way the Dubai people do it is the reason why their horses haven't won when it's plenty of other people that don't do it their way and they haven't won either.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

maybe he would have had success at four, but maybe he wouldn't. it's always a crapshoot with these horses. but, the sheikh didn't need bernardini to run any longer, he wants to breed top horses as well-he's got a real hard on for coolmore, and trying to surpass their breeding program, and he needs all the help he can get in that regard.
so, racing wise, there may have been no need to retire bernardini-but breeding wise, it's another story. he's just as interested, if not more so, in developing the #1 breeding program in the world.

You're right and unfortunately, although I don't like the Sheikh, I can't say that he's the only one retiring his horses. I guess I'd better get used to it - unless a horse is a gelding or has mediocre breeding, any good 3 year old is going to be retired. It makes it hard to get attached, though.

[Danzig]

which is why you shouldn't get attached. after pine island, i won't anymore. enjoy the sport, but don't get too caught up in any one individual.

[King Glorious]

Maybe it's just me but I find it interesting that not a word was said when Frankel purchased this horse from someone else because he liked what he saw in the horse.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Henny Hughes returned and won a gr three race in NJ before winning the gr one King's Bishop and the gr one Vosburgh over older horses. Discreet Cat came back and won the gr two Jerome then beat older in the gr one Cigar Mile, nearly setting a track and world record in the process. Please, at least present better examples of failures if you are going to tell me where my opinion is wrong.

Henny Hughes never had a shot in hell to win the Derby. What he did have a chance to be was the best 3yo sprinter in the country, if not the best sprinter period and it's arguable that he still turned out to be both. Discreet Cat probably wasn't getting 10f on his best days either so to classify them both as failures because they didn't come back here and win the Derby is a bit silly to me.

Maybe the analogy to Pletcher or Frankel is silly. But the point is that even doing things the conventional way is not a guarantee to success. I don't think it's fair to say that the way the Dubai people do it is the reason why their horses haven't won when it's plenty of other people that don't do it their way and they haven't won either.

Please study this a bit. Henny Hughes came back very strong..... but was given to Kiaran McLaughlin in February or March of '06. Kiaran then worked the horse up to the Jersey race and had him until his retirement. He did nothing while with Godolphin. Check it out. If you wanna be a supporter, at least know what you are supporting.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Henny Hughes returned and won a gr three race in NJ before winning the gr one King's Bishop and the gr one Vosburgh over older horses. Discreet Cat came back and won the gr two Jerome then beat older in the gr one Cigar Mile, nearly setting a track and world record in the process. Please, at least present better examples of failures if you are going to tell me where my opinion is wrong.

Henny Hughes never had a shot in hell to win the Derby. What he did have a chance to be was the best 3yo sprinter in the country, if not the best sprinter period and it's arguable that he still turned out to be both. Discreet Cat probably wasn't getting 10f on his best days either so to classify them both as failures because they didn't come back here and win the Derby is a bit silly to me.

Maybe the analogy to Pletcher or Frankel is silly. But the point is that even doing things the conventional way is not a guarantee to success. I don't think it's fair to say that the way the Dubai people do it is the reason why their horses haven't won when it's plenty of other people that don't do it their way and they haven't won either.

You really don't know what you are talking about with Godolphin. You really don't. They distroy good athletes. Henny was a good second in the Juvenile. To say you knew he had no chance in being formidable in the derby is plain silly. Maturity as well as athleticism play key roles in that and you can't know that. Henny goes to Dubai and you hear nothing about him until he returns ....... to another trainer! Godolphin is a program operation. They fit horses into their program. Any horse who is tough to train, etc, they do very poorly with. The Albertrani's/McLaughlins, etc have success because they know how to deal with the projects that don't fit into the program. Look it up. You really need to investigate the facts. Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

You really don't know what you are talking about with Godolphin. You really don't. They distroy good athletes. Henny was a good second in the Juvenile. To say you knew he had no chance in being formidable in the derby is plain silly. Maturity as well as athleticism play key roles in that and you can't know that. Henny goes to Dubai and you hear nothing about him until he returns ....... to another trainer! Godolphin is a program operation. They fit horses into their program. Any horse who is tough to train, etc, they do very poorly with. The Albertrani's/McLaughlins, etc have success because they know how to deal with the projects that don't fit into the program. Look it up. You really need to investigate the facts. Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

AMEN to that one.