Under topic: No Good Deed goes Unpunished

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Mrs Z, I agree with everything you just said! Certainly the people that raise a child are seen by that child as parents and they see that child as "their's". In a world where there are so many unloved and unwanted children, adoption is a wonderful thing...all that is 100% true. But the reason so many folks see having a child as a "right" and feeling that they can satisfy a "want" by having a child is the fact that responsibility is left by the wayside. Some folks here see my point as "not worth arguing" and that's sad! Often times, things that seem stupid on the surface only seem so because of our mindsets...a product of our socialization...I might be so bold as to call it brainwashing! Human life and responsibility that comes with free will are not simplistic concepts to be brushed aside because of some "soundbite" philosophy. It cannot be denied that this man is the biological father of the two children who were created via the introduction of his sperm, the question then becomes is he responsible for his acts? I say "yes" others, while preaching responsibility when it comes to crime and other life choices, say "no" and that confounds me! Of course it becomes a complex issue...what about adoption and other issues that arise? They are each issues separate but connected to the original concept of personal responsibility. Just as some poster feels inclined to state the obvious...that all abortions are not an "easy fix", what about the cases where the mother's life hangs in the balance, what about rape etc.? Again, separate but obviously connected issues. BUT, my point is that you can't justify avoiding responsibility for your acts by pointing out possible ramifications related to the status quo anymore than you can justify abortion in general based on arguments about rape and mother's health. Society should not be the deciding force with these issues...they are personal choices. If you create a child and deny responsibility for same...that's your responsibility...your free will...and the consequences are your's as well. Same with abortion...you decide to have an abortion...the consequences are your's. Unfortunately, we need laws to govern us because folks won't always do the right thing. Hopefully the laws of man will be morally correct, in this instance the Pa court made a decision that I agree with, others disagree. I have made my point the best I can, I would feel the same if the court decided differently.

Somer: you are confounded,to be sure! Let's put aside our purported understanding of each other and see what you stated in one paragraph. "Society should not be the deciding force with these issues...they are personal choices" and "Unfortunately, we need laws to govern us because folks won't always do the right thing". What is the Left's credo..."you can't legislate morality" And yet you agree that some laws(which may be unpopular) must be established...for our own good! I don't like abortion(with the usual exceptions) and I dislike the Govt having to pay for the indescretions of the hedonists who don't take precautions. You got to the same place...how,I'll never know. It is my understanding that a sperm bank was to be a beneficial avenue for childless couples. It grew to include females(and males on occasion) who wanted a child without the "unwieldy" restraints of traditional homelife. No problem. This is where your idea on sperm banks comes in(as yet unexplained). It is inconceivable to me that you could expect the simple issue of sperm to force fatherhood on a donor. The partners(gay or otherwise) form the parental duo...and the sole responsibility for financial support should be on the "partnered couple" unless they go on welfare. And btw....you didn't answer my last post and query...how unscholarly of you

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Somer: you are confounded,to be sure! Let's put aside our purported understanding of each other and see what you stated in one paragraph. "Society should not be the deciding force with these issues...they are personal choices" and "Unfortunately, we need laws to govern us because folks won't always do the right thing". What is the Left's credo..."you can't legislate morality" And yet you agree that some laws(which may be unpopular) must be established...for our own good! I don't like abortion(with the usual exceptions) and I dislike the Govt having to pay for the indescretions of the hedonists who don't take precautions. You got to the same place...how,I'll never know. It is my understanding that a sperm bank was to be a beneficial avenue for childless couples. It grew to include females(and males on occasion) who wanted a child without the "unwieldy" restraints of traditional homelife. No problem. This is where your idea on sperm banks comes in(as yet unexplained). It is inconceivable to me that you could expect the simple issue of sperm to force fatherhood on a donor. The partners(gay or otherwise) form the parental duo...and the sole responsibility for financial support should be on the "partnered couple" unless they go on welfare. And btw....you didn't answer my last post and query...how unscholarly of you

I do say that though...the sperm that impregnated the woman came from this guy (they apparently did this at home so I'm unsure of the method...nor do I particularly want to know ) so he IS the biological father, he is half responsible for the resulting children. I've read back over the posts...what issue that you raised didn't I address?

[Buffymommy]

Basically, what the guy should have done was tell the woman to go to a sperm bank. He made the conscious decision to give the woman his sperm to make a baby. No he may not have wanted a baby but he did make one.

Sperm banks are in this world for a reason. I understand that the guy was just trying to do a nice thing and the women are taking advantage of that, but he did make the conscious decision to make a baby.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Buffymommy

Basically, what the guy should have done was tell the woman to go to a sperm bank. He made the conscious decision to give the woman his sperm to make a baby. No he may not have wanted a baby but he did make one.

Sperm banks are in this world for a reason. I understand that the guy was just trying to do a nice thing and the women are taking advantage of that, but he did make the conscious decision to make a baby.

That's true Buffy, under Pa law, he is responsible according to the article. My issue of course goes deeper as I am against any form of artificial impregnation.

[brianwspencer]

This is ridiculous. It's like giving up a child for adoption, and after the adoptive parents split up, being hunted down for child support.

The two partners who split should, regardless of their bitterness over their split, be grateful that this man was willing to help them in the first place.

I look at it from my own life. If two close lesbian friends asked me to donate sperm, I would do it in a heartbeat. If they turned around after splitting and tried to hit me up for child support (after I very clearly already signed away my rights to the child), there would be something very wrong with this.

All this talk about how it was "his choice" and he "created a child" is complete folly. This pregnancy was not the result of his hedonistic sexual escapades or his own lack of responsibility. It was a donation so that two people who could not have a child would be able to have a child. Ungrateful biatches.

Sick.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is ridiculous. It's like giving up a child for adoption, and after the adoptive parents split up, being hunted down for child support.

The two partners who split should, regardless of their bitterness over their split, be grateful that this man was willing to help them in the first place.

I look at it from my own life. If two close lesbian friends asked me to donate sperm, I would do it in a heartbeat. If they turned around after splitting and tried to hit me up for child support (after I very clearly already signed away my rights to the child), there would be something very wrong with this.

All this talk about how it was "his choice" and he "created a child" is complete folly. This pregnancy was not the result of his hedonistic sexual escapades or his own lack of responsibility. It was a donation so that two people who could not have a child would be able to have a child. Ungrateful biatches.

Sick.

BrianW,
Good one.
Now that I chimed in, any guess how long it will take for the baba-balongna guy to respond?
To me, this whole thing is a bit hee-lair-eee-ous.
What was the name of the Woody Allen movie...the one with all those guys strapping on their parchutes gettin' ready to jump from the plane...ya know the one.."Everything you wanted to know..." about something?
Anyway, does this case have "serious implications", like...do I have to give up my swimmin' tadpoles and put those nicely taxidermed pollywogs on a mark down table at my next yard sale?
I only ask cause ya seem so informed, and I agree with so much of your opins.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is ridiculous. It's like giving up a child for adoption, and after the adoptive parents split up, being hunted down for child support.

The two partners who split should, regardless of their bitterness over their split, be grateful that this man was willing to help them in the first place.

I look at it from my own life. If two close lesbian friends asked me to donate sperm, I would do it in a heartbeat. If they turned around after splitting and tried to hit me up for child support (after I very clearly already signed away my rights to the child), there would be something very wrong with this.

All this talk about how it was "his choice" and he "created a child" is complete folly. This pregnancy was not the result of his hedonistic sexual escapades or his own lack of responsibility. It was a donation so that two people who could not have a child would be able to have a child. Ungrateful biatches.

Sick.

Brian, regardless of whether you think the women are good folks or not (I have no idea) the man IS the biological father. Nobody is saying he was involved in "hedonistic sexual escapades" but I am saying that he is responsible for creating two human beings (along with the biological mother of course). When you say you would gladly "help" your friends create a baby...what is it that you are saying? A baby is not a piece of property, it's not the same as if you helped them build a patio...your actions would create a human being...a child...and you would feel no responsibility for that life? You might be able to legally sign away any legal responsibility but I submit you'd remain morally responsible!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Initially, you sorta made it sound like your stance on artificial impregnation was tangential here. So, that is where the breakdown is, it seems.

Somer is arguing from the standpoint of how he perceives "natural law". And others are arguing from a more "practical" or contemporary standpoint.

However, for somer to make this about Christians bashing gays seems a bit unfair, for if you logically extend his premise, we just may get to an even more "anti-gay" position (at least "just as"... as some would accuse).

As for whether the court got it right here, who knows...I haven't a clue as to what statutes and case law are in play here. However, it is not unprecedented for someone who acts as a father to a child, even if the child is not biologically his and even if the couple is not married, to be forced to pay child support. So, if this guy is the biological father and has, in at least some ways, acted as a father figure to the children, then it is not entirely surprising that the court made this ruling.

Baba,
You are basically correct regarding the different points of view here...I'd say that my viewpoint is more based on a moral and ethical overview as well but yeah, that's about right. I think I said something along the lines of "you conservative christian types"...I'm not saying all or even most but certainly the more "conservative" or "fundamentalist" christian folks are, the more anti-gay they present....timm's language, "broad" and "real" support my statement in the context of this board and the personalities involved (OK, "broad" is offensive to all women not just gays).

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian, regardless of whether you think the women are good folks or not (I have no idea) the man IS the biological father. Nobody is saying he was involved in "hedonistic sexual escapades" but I am saying that he is responsible for creating two human beings (along with the biological mother of course). When you say you would gladly "help" your friends create a baby...what is it that you are saying? A baby is not a piece of property, it's not the same as if you helped them build a patio...your actions would create a human being...a child...and you would feel no responsibility for that life? You might be able to legally sign away any legal responsibility but I submit you'd remain morally responsible!

Somer -- there is a HUGE difference between feeling a sense of responsibility to the child, and being court-ordered to financially support it. I would certainly feel responsibility for the child I helped to create, but that is a far cry from what happened here. If I made an effort to help two friends of mine who, in good faith, wanted to have a child together, I would certainly expect that it would be their responsibility to take care of said child. If they split up, if we want to talk morals here, changing their mind about being parents and asking for help in becoming parents (while hitting up a sperm donor for cash) is the only morally bankrupt position in this case. It is absolutely no different than an anonymous sperm donor, and those donors are not called on for child support. These woman are soulless, morally bankrupt individuals.

And while children are not "property" in the sense of a car or a pair of earrings, really, if we cut all the crap they sort of are property at that age. That's why people say "this is MY son" instead of "this is the young gentlemen who sprang forth from my loins." Ever try stealing one?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

I meant "natural law" in the sense of immutable moral or ethical principles that are applicable to everyone, everywhere, all of the time (which you, at the very least, implied by contrasting contemporary man-made law against something "bigger" ).

I personally believe in "natural law", as I am sure most "traditionally" religious folks do as well (either implicitly or explicitly), so I can appreciate where you are coming from. Whether I agree with you here is another thing (I'd have to dwell on it some more - I tend to think there are some wrinkles)...but you aren't so far from the traditional Catholic view WRT artificial insemination, abortion, and such. And, IMHO, given your personal religious preferences, I think that tends to weigh in favor of the existence of "natural law" (for those who doubt its existence). IOW, we may disagree as to who the Author of "natural law" is (or use different names for said Author), and disagree WRT how to "right" ourselves for transgressing the law on occasion, and we may even disagree as to some of the law's provisions (or how to determine what the law is in some instances); however, we generally agree as to its existence and even agree as to its content in a general sense.

Baba,
I agree with your overview. As a Wiccan, I believe the only difference is the name we give the Author...I believe all folks who believe in a supreme being are in fact worshiping the same entity...just using different names and different "methodology". Yes, I believe there has to exist "natural law" and the law of man sometimes is in line with same and sometimes not!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Somer -- there is a HUGE difference between feeling a sense of responsibility to the child, and being court-ordered to financially support it. I would certainly feel responsibility for the child I helped to create, but that is a far cry from what happened here. If I made an effort to help two friends of mine who, in good faith, wanted to have a child together, I would certainly expect that it would be their responsibility to take care of said child. If they split up, if we want to talk morals here, changing their mind about being parents and asking for help in becoming parents (while hitting up a sperm donor for cash) is the only morally bankrupt position in this case. It is absolutely no different than an anonymous sperm donor, and those donors are not called on for child support. These woman are soulless, morally bankrupt individuals.

And while children are not "property" in the sense of a car or a pair of earrings, really, if we cut all the crap they sort of are property at that age. That's why people say "this is MY son" instead of "this is the young gentlemen who sprang forth from my loins." Ever try stealing one?

Brian...so what you are saying is that because these two women behaved immorally (in your opinion) that relieves the man of his moral responsibility? How does that jive with free will and individual responsibility?? And a human being is never "property"...a parent has a MORAL responsibility to care for, protect and educate a young child, that involves setting rules and limits and controlling aspects of the child's life but that does not constitute "ownership"...the fact that so many folks see children as something they are "entitled to " is part of the problem.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian...so what you are saying is that because these two women behaved immorally (in your opinion) that relieves the man of his moral responsibility? How does that jive with free will and individual responsibility?? And a human being is never "property"...a parent has a MORAL responsibility to care for, protect and educate a young child, that involves setting rules and limits and controlling aspects of the child's life but that does not constitute "ownership"...the fact that so many folks see children as something they are "entitled to " is part of the problem.

If a biological mother gives her child up for adoption and a man and a woman adopt the child -- if those two break up, is it right for the female adoptive parent to hunt down the biological mother for financial support? Of course not, she is the mother, she is not the parent. People who become parents through adoption or sperm donation are taking on the responsibilities of parenting -- that very act relieves the biological mother or father of their parenting responsibilities. That's what sperm donors are for -- so that women can become pregnant without another man having claim on their child. So why does this donor's lack of anonyminity make this case somehow different from an anonymous donor?

They are the same thing. Biologically he is the father, but he is not the parent. Now that their relationship went to crap, this lady wants him to be posthumously financially the parent?

It's all about good faith. Somer, let's say you needed $10,000 to make sure your house wouldn't get foreclosed on. If I had lots of money, I'd certainly be willing to give that to you if you asked me to help save your house. Now if you turn around and use that money to hire a hitman to kill your neighbor, and then try to blame it on me and make me accept criminal responsibility for it because it was my money and I should have been responsible in giving it away -- well, it would sort of be as outlandish as this scenario.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

If a biological mother gives her child up for adoption and a man and a woman adopt the child -- if those two break up, is it right for the female adoptive parent to hunt down the biological mother for financial support? Of course not, she is the mother, she is not the parent. People who become parents through adoption or sperm donation are taking on the responsibilities of parenting -- that very act relieves the biological mother or father of their parenting responsibilities. That's what sperm donors are for -- so that women can become pregnant without another man having claim on their child. So why does this donor's lack of anonyminity make this case somehow different from an anonymous donor?

They are the same thing. Biologically he is the father, but he is not the parent. Now that their relationship went to crap, this lady wants him to be posthumously financially the parent?

It's all about good faith. Somer, let's say you needed $10,000 to make sure your house wouldn't get foreclosed on. If I had lots of money, I'd certainly be willing to give that to you if you asked me to help save your house. Now if you turn around and use that money to hire a hitman to kill your neighbor, and then try to blame it on me and make me accept criminal responsibility for it because it was my money and I should have been responsible in giving it away -- well, it would sort of be as outlandish as this scenario.

Loaning someone money is hardly the same as creating a life...totally different situations. You state that a biological parent is "relieved of his/her responsibilities" when someone else assumes same...I disagree and this is where we think totally differently...we are responsible for our acts (free will, personal responsibility), nothing anyone else does can relieve us of this, this man is the biological father...this will always be so...no matter what others may do! I'll say it again, I am opposed to all means of artificial impregnation for this very reason (and others). I simply cannot comprehend why those who are so adamant about folks taking responsibility for their acts when it comes to crime or lifestyle deny responsibility for creating a life...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Loaning someone money is hardly the same as creating a life...totally different situations. You state that a biological parent is "relieved of his/her responsibilities" when someone else assumes same...I disagree and this is where we think totally differently...we are responsible for our acts (free will, personal responsibility), nothing anyone else does can relieve us of this, this man is the biological father...this will always be so...no matter what others may do! I'll say it again, I am opposed to all means of artificial impregnation for this very reason (and others). I simply cannot comprehend why those who are so adamant about folks taking responsibility for their acts when it comes to crime or lifestyle deny responsibility for creating a life...

Well homosexuals or heterosexual couples with a sterile husband are in a bit of a pickle then as it seems you're advocating that homosexuals and heterosexual couples who are both not able to reproduce on their own should not have children -- and if they do (by whatever means) they will never truly be the parents because someone else will always be responsible for their kids on a biological basis.

Obviously my money comment is on another plane from the concept of a child, but the idea is the same. Someone says they want/need something from you for one reason (whether it be so they can have a child to love with their partner, or to save their house) and then turn around later and change their mind and try to make you responsible for what they've done with it (making you responsible for the child, or killing the neighbor). The personal responsibility here lies with the mothers, not with the biological father. If you disagree with that, so be it, but it certainly seems to border on denying the blessing of parenthood to homosexual or infertile couples.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I do say that though...the sperm that impregnated the woman came from this guy (they apparently did this at home so I'm unsure of the method...nor do I particularly want to know ) so he IS the biological father, he is half responsible for the resulting children. I've read back over the posts...what issue that you raised didn't I address?

Post 20-the example?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Thats BS...but apparently you don't know it! you continually spin on the poor downtrodden gay people and how Conservative/Christian people attack them....that's irresposible of you. Let's say it was 2 men that were partners and wanted a child. Obviously, they couldn't accomplish this by themselves,so they have a woman...err..remote controlled. they live happily til someone else shakes the timbers and they split up. One guy cares for the child,the other doesn't. The guy who has custody of child then sues for support from the mother of the child and wins support. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

If you mean the question about "what's wrong...", nothing is wrong with that picture! The mother always was responsible for bringing the child into the world!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well homosexuals or heterosexual couples with a sterile husband are in a bit of a pickle then as it seems you're advocating that homosexuals and heterosexual couples who are both not able to reproduce on their own should not have children -- and if they do (by whatever means) they will never truly be the parents because someone else will always be responsible for their kids on a biological basis.

Obviously my money comment is on another plane from the concept of a child, but the idea is the same. Someone says they want/need something from you for one reason (whether it be so they can have a child to love with their partner, or to save their house) and then turn around later and change their mind and try to make you responsible for what they've done with it (making you responsible for the child, or killing the neighbor). The personal responsibility here lies with the mothers, not with the biological father. If you disagree with that, so be it, but it certainly seems to border on denying the blessing of parenthood to homosexual or infertile couples.

I cannot change biology...it is the natural order of things that it takes a man and a woman to conceive a child, I'm not denying gay or barren couples anything..it is the natural order. I know lots of women who have told me they wish a man could carry a child and deliver, I understand their point but I'm not able to change that!
I believe in adoption...I think it is an act of uncommon goodness and sacrifice to adopt and raise a child. There are millions of babies in Africa who have lost their parents, why not adopt one and save them from a life of unspeakable horror? If you adopt a child who has living biological parents however, you should do so with the realization that those parents have a continued responsibility toward that child. Legally you can work out a deal where they have no contact and/or legal responsibilities but the moral link will always exist. When I married my second wife, she had three small children...I raised them and was "dad" but I always accepted the fact that they had a biological father who I could never be...I raised them out of love for them and their mother not because I thought they belonged to me! It didn't make me love them any less...why should a barren or gay couple who adopt be any different? And...as I've said before, children are not a "right" they are a gift, I feel for anyone who wants a child and is unable to have one but that doesn't justify trampling over natural law for someone's perceived "right of ownership"!

[timmgirvan]

Somer: Well....I guess that's what makes horse racing!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Somer: Well....I guess that's what makes horse racing!

Yep, and why not everyone thinks as I do that Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the greatest TV show ever...people have different opinions, different likes and dislikes. While I feel this is a huge issue, most folks here apparently think I'm just taking the opportunity to stand on the soapbox.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Yep, and why not everyone thinks as I do that Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the greatest TV show ever...people have different opinions, different likes and dislikes. While I feel this is a huge issue, most folks here apparently think I'm just taking the opportunity to stand on the soapbox.

Taking responsibility is the number one thing absent from this society,and the careless disregard of human life(at any stage). Right or Wrong,Somer, at least you make the effort....I'll give you that! BTW....LOTR...Return of the King is on TBS this weekend around 8pm. I'm going to fit it into my busy schedule