A question on Easy Goer...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I guess its just "a coiincidence" that the one time they met and Harthill couldn't get near SS that SS got bitchslapped by a pole huh?

or the one time was in new york, and easy goer was king of new york. plus the fact that a lot of horses, sunday presumably being one of them, don't like big sandy.
i don't buy the bald eagle being a cheat, not at all.

[slotdirt]

Fewer posters have contributed as much quality information in as short a time as bravado. Well done!

[blackthroatedwind]

I love these figs that Bravado is posting. It is a great reminder of what a good horse genuinely looked like. Seeing Cigar's numbers is very interesting, as at the time everyone that used numbers recognized him as a good horse, and very consistent, but over all not supremely fast. When you compare him to some of the other horses Bravado has posted that is obvious. The problem is that these days very mediocre good horses get annointed as superstars. There was Smarty Jones, a relatively slow good horses ( save his LAST win...the Preakness ), and then there may be the worst offender of all time...Afleet Alex. People talk about him with hushed tones, and he was a nice horse, just slow. Would either of those two horses have run some really " fast " races had they stuck around, possibly, but also quite possibly they would have been swallowed up as perhaps some others improved. I highly doubt Afleet Alex would have had an easy time with the Flower Alley of the summer of 2005. On the other hand, Seattle Slew was " slow " as a 3YO and it wasn't until he was really tested, in the Fall of his 4YO season, that we found out how good he really was.

The point....stop annointing superstars based on a few races and keep some perspective on what we are seeing. These numbers of horses from the last 20 years offer some great perspective. I would like to see Precisionist's numbers, and the distances he was running, at his peak ( and before his awful unretirement ). Then there was Turkoman. Man, these were GOOD horses, and they raced.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I love these figs that Bravado is posting. It is a great reminder of what a good horse genuinely looked like. Seeing Cigar's numbers is very interesting, as at the time everyone that used numbers recognized him as a good horse, and very consistent, but over all not supremely fast. When you compare him to some of the other horses Bravado has posted that is obvious. The problem is that these days very mediocre good horses get annointed as superstars. There was Smarty Jones, a relatively slow good horses ( save his LAST win...the Preakness ), and then there may be the worst offender of all time...Afleet Alex. People talk about him with hushed tones, and he was a nice horse, just slow. Would either of those two horses have run some really " fast " races had they stuck around, possibly, but also quite possibly they would have been swallowed up as perhaps some others improved. I highly doubt Afleet Alex would have had an easy time with the Flower Alley of the summer of 2005. On the other hand, Seattle Slew was " slow " as a 3YO and it wasn't until he was really tested, in the Fall of his 4YO season, that we found out how good he really was.

The point....stop annointing superstars based on a few races and keep some perspective on what we are seeing. These numbers of horses from the last 20 years offer some great perspective. I would like to see Precisionist's numbers, and the distances he was running, at his peak ( and before his awful unretirement ). Then there was Turkoman. Man, these were GOOD horses, and they raced.

Agreed...I always wondered what horses like Turkoman, Precisionist, Snow Chief, Alysheba etc ran on a career-wide basis. I know Beyer's were made in the 80s on the same or similar scale...I wish they'd put them into some kind of publication. The DRF's "champions" book lists all figures from like 1992 on, but anything before that is tough to find. I just have a few random ones such as the ones I've posted.

[Danzig]

what baffles me....horses supposedly aren't as durable. but geldings are?! look at perfect drift, lava man, funny cide (god bless him). they aren't fragile, they keep running. and i'm not talking running sore, these guys lay it on the line, and do it well. yeah, lava can't ship, but my god when he's at home (ala silver train) he's unbeatable. the skimming of this generation.
galls me, it really does, how they pawn off these 'fragile' creatures, while their 'lesser' brethren are the real men after all...

[alysheba4]

i wonder what alysheba beyer was the race prior to b cup? i believe he ran a sub 59 under 130 lbs ....... that horses 1988 campaign was freakish.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

i wonder what alysheba beyer was the race prior to b cup? i believe he ran a sub 59 under 130 lbs ....... that horses 1988 campaign was freakish.

His win in the Woodward, over Forty Niner, was awesome. I think that's the race you are talking about. Yeah, he was another horse that would put these paper tigers to shame.

[alysheba4]

well thats race was a track record at the time, but i believe it was his next start, the medowlands cup?? he went 1.58 and change carrying 130

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

well thats race was a track record at the time, but i believe it was his next start, the medowlands cup?? he went 1.58 and change carrying 130

I was at both of those races. The Meadowlands Cup was a small field and he dominated Slew City Slew but the Woodward was a full field of about eight decent horses. I do recall at the Meadowlands that night that McCarron and Pincay dominated the night, finishing one-two a number of times, and not always at shot prices.

[Slewbopper]

Is that you Darrell?

Dinver

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

Is that you Darrell?

Dinver

You caught me!

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

His win in the Woodward, over Forty Niner, was awesome. I think that's the race you are talking about. Yeah, he was another horse that would put these paper tigers to shame.

Damnit, you guys beat me to this. I was just gonna bring Alysheba as well.
Imagine what he would have done to the most recent classic field?
Now thats another great example of a racehorse, and BTW also beat me to mentioning Turkoman. Tell you what, the most incredible race Turkoman ever ran was a losing effort at Saratoga, the 7f race where you never saw a horse in your entire life come down the stretch like he did falling one length short of Groovy, and Groovy was sensational sprinting.
Thsi whole discussion the past few weeks has me realizing how lucky I was to have seen the horses that I have seen, and how little I appreciated them at the time.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Damnit, you guys beat me to this. I was just gonna bring Alysheba as well.
Imagine what he would have done to the most recent classic field?
Now thats another great example of a racehorse, and BTW also beat me to mentioning Turkoman. Tell you what, the most incredible race Turkoman ever ran was a losing effort at Saratoga, the 7f race where you never saw a horse in your entire life come down the stretch like he did falling one length short of Groovy, and Groovy was sensational sprinting.
Thsi whole discussion the past few weeks has me realizing how lucky I was to have seen the horses that I have seen, and how little I appreciated them at the time.

Mike,
I saw you mentioned Groovy.
Sad to say, Jose Martin passed away recently. RIP.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/tod...67952&subsec=1

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Mike,
I saw you mentioned Groovy.
Sad to say, Jose Martin passed away recently. RIP.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/tod...67952&subsec=1

Speaking of Groovy, he ran a 133 and a 131 in a couple of his 1987 wins (fastest figs of the past 20 years).

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Damnit, you guys beat me to this.
Thsi whole discussion the past few weeks has me realizing how lucky I was to have seen the horses that I have seen, and how little I appreciated them at the time.

So true. I have been following this sport since '77. It seemed like I took for granted there was always an exciting horse in training that would dance all the dances. The best horse to run in the last 8 years or so is probably Ghostzapper and he went to the post 11 times in 4 seasons.

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

So true. I have been following this sport since '77. It seemed like I took for granted there was always an exciting horse in training that would dance all the dances. The best horse to run in the last 8 years or so is probably Ghostzapper and he went to the post 11 times in 4 seasons.

I guess I have to admit that I also forgot how lucky I was to have seen horses like the ones we are talking about.
Lots of Kool Aid being drank this year in regards to a few "superhorses".
I think we've talked about some REAL superhorses on this thread, and I hope I get to see some more.
I was younger when these horses ran, and I guess I took for granted that what i was witnessing was always gonna be there in some form.
I wonder how many folks who have read this thread and thought about Formal Gold, Skip Away, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer,etc and saw their figs and got red faced about buying the hype on a few horses lately.
Lets just hope we get to see some horses like that again, and more importantly, lets see some rivalries like these horses had.
They produced exciting races and thrills and chills up the spine. Not getting a whole lot of that lately.

[MLC]

This is a great thread. I have followed the sport since the 60's and it's good to know that people appreciate the thoroughbreds that ran more than once a month and faced fields larger than 4 or 5 other horses. A couple of months ago, when Bernardinimania was rampant, some posters suggested that he be considered among the greats or would soon be. Looking at some of the figures you folks are posting should make people realize what it really takes for a horse to be considered great and the horses and races that stick in your mind and make you appreciate the sport.

Originally Posted by alysheba4

i wonder what alysheba beyer was the race prior to b cup? i believe he ran a sub 59 under 130 lbs ....... that horses 1988 campaign was freakish.

That was just a scary display of talent, and I don't think it was the Woodward. I think that was the mile and a quarter race on that dead slow track where he broke two minutes anyway(!;59 and change I believe) despite not getting "his setup" and carrying a couch on his back.
Just crazy good, I wonder If I'll ever see another performance like that again.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Fewer posters have contributed as much quality information in as short a time as bravado. Well done!

Thanks!

By the way, trust me...you're only saying that now because I've been posting absent my own personal opinions on some of these issues!