NBA CHAMPIONSHIP: Who wins and in how many games

[Calzone Lord]

Lebron has to be the best player in the NBA. He's led the regular season in +/- for four years in a row on two different teams.

2008-2009: James (CLE) +871 (tops in NBA by 178 points)

2009-2010: James (CLE) +650 (tops in NBA by 48 points)

2010-2011: James (MIA) +619 (tops in NBA by 4 points)

2011-2012: James (MIA) +474 (tops in NBA by 53 points)


Interestingly, James is almost never in the top 15 of that stat in the playoffs.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Lebron has to be the best player in the NBA. He's led the regular season in +/- for four years in a row on two different teams.

2008-2009: James (CLE) +871 (tops in NBA by 178 points)

2009-2010: James (CLE) +650 (tops in NBA by 48 points)

2010-2011: James (MIA) +619 (tops in NBA by 4 points)

2011-2012: James (MIA) +474 (tops in NBA by 53 points)


Interestingly, James is almost never in the top 15 of that stat in the playoffs.

Hes the best player in the NBA, by FAR. Listen to Collin this morning or podcast it. He will be the best player for another 4-5 years. Maybe when hes 32 he will slow down a bit.

[Dahoss]

Collin Cowherd said it so it must be true.

[cmorioles]

If he were the best by far, they'd be a lock to repeat this year.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If he were the best by far, they'd be a lock to repeat this year.

So if your the best player in a team sport you have to win every year? Come on, you dont believe that. Does the best horse always win? Whos the best NFL player? Ill tell you right now, the Giants dont have a top 15 player.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

So if your the best player in a team sport you have to win every year? Come on, you dont believe that. Does the best horse always win? Whos the best NFL player? Ill tell you right now, the Giants dont have a top 15 player.

You said BY FAR! That is far different than being the best player. You act like he is still in Cleveland with Mo Williams and Anthony Parker. He is playing with two great basketball players and some good role players.

This OKC has the better "team" stuff is a bunch of crap. The rosters actually match up very well. They are very close, just as KD and Lebron are. Everyone is heaping praise on Lebron for last night, and he was very good. Still, in the end, he bricked a three when up two and a chance to seal it after going strong the whole game, then fouled the hell out of KD and got away with it. Color me unimpressed at his 4Q again.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You said BY FAR! That is far different than being the best player. You act like he is still in Cleveland with Mo Williams and Anthony Parker. He is playing with two great basketball players and some good role players.

This OKC has the better "team" stuff is a bunch of crap. The rosters actually match up very well. They are very close, just as KD and Lebron are. Everyone is heaping praise on Lebron for last night, and he was very good. Still, in the end, he bricked a three when up two and a chance to seal it after going strong the whole game, then fouled the hell out of KD and got away with it. Color me unimpressed at his 4Q again.

I feel that way CJ. Durant is great and me saying this is no shot at him. Durant is the second best player in the NBA and IMO thats not even close anymore. And when he is 26 or 27 he will be the best in the NBA until the next great comes along. I just feel Lebron does more better. Everything except shoot.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Collin Cowherd said it so it must be true.

Collin is the best at his job, by far. A lot like Lebron.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Collin is the best at his job, by far. A lot like Lebron.

Starved for attention again, huh?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Starved for attention again, huh?

Rumor was you had me blocked on here, nice to hear from you again.
Not at all. Im into a lot of things on this nice Friday. Plus work at 3. Its the truth. Collin is the best on the radio.
On another note....
Can anyone post a pic of Westbrooks outfit from post game last night? Im trying to buy the exact same thing for opening day Saratoga.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Rumor was you had me blocked on here, nice to hear from you again.
Not at all. Im into a lot of things on this nice Friday. Plus work at 3. Its the truth. Collin is the best on the radio.
On another note....
Can anyone post a pic of Westbrooks outfit from post game last night? Im trying to buy the exact same thing for opening day Saratoga.

No one cares about your opinion other than to mock it or bet against it.

I think you should stick with the jorts at Saratoga. They are more your style Bubbasparxx1985.

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Rumor was you had me blocked on here, nice to hear from you again.
Not at all. Im into a lot of things on this nice Friday. Plus work at 3. Its the truth. Collin is the best on the radio.
On another note....
Can anyone post a pic of Westbrooks outfit from post game last night? Im trying to buy the exact same thing for opening day Saratoga.

He's consistent. Kind of like Five Guys. The burger is good but the cajun fries piss me off. They're stupid and don't go well with a dressed burger.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Collin is the best at his job, by far. A lot like Lebron.

Colin Cowherd and most national guys have no idea what they are watching when it comes to baseball and NBA basketball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Lebron has to be the best player in the NBA. He's led the regular season in +/- for four years in a row on two different teams.

2008-2009: James (CLE) +871 (tops in NBA by 178 points)

2009-2010: James (CLE) +650 (tops in NBA by 48 points)

2010-2011: James (MIA) +619 (tops in NBA by 4 points)

2011-2012: James (MIA) +474 (tops in NBA by 53 points)


Interestingly, James is almost never in the top 15 of that stat in the playoffs.

+/- is a pretty useless stat

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

+/- is a pretty useless stat

It's not so much a stat -- it's just a running score of how the team did when the player was on the floor.

For instance:

'11-12 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 474 points
'11-12 Miami Heat without James on the floor: outscored by 80 points

'10-11 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 619 points
'10-11 Miami Heat without James on the floor: Outscored by 4 points

'09-10 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 650 points
'09-10 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 117 points

'08-09 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 871 points
'08-09 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 142 points


So, over the last four years...

When James is on the court... his team wins by 2,614 points.

When James isn't on the court ... his team loses by 343 points.


That simply tells me he's more valuable to his team than any other player.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It's not so much a stat -- it's just a running score of how the team did when the player was on the floor.

For instance:

'11-12 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 474 points
'11-12 Miami Heat without James on the floor: outscored by 80 points

'10-11 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 619 points
'10-11 Miami Heat without James on the floor: Outscored by 4 points

'09-10 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 650 points
'09-10 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 117 points

'08-09 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 871 points
'08-09 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 142 points


So, over the last four years...

When James is on the court... his team wins by 2,614 points.

When James isn't on the court ... his team loses by 343 points.


That simply tells me he's more valuable to his team than any other player.

That tells me he plays a lot of minutes on a good team. It is a team stat because good players on bad teams are unfairly punished and bad players on good teams are unfairly helped. I don't know how his team being worse when James is off the floor (meaning a substitute is playing in his place) is a meaningful stat. Stats w/o context are a waste of time

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That tells me he plays a lot of minutes on a good team. It is a team stat because good players on bad teams are unfairly punished and bad players on good teams are unfairly helped. I don't know how his team being worse when James is off the floor (meaning a substitute is playing in his place) is a meaningful stat. Stats w/o context are a waste of time

Isn't your value to your team determined by how much better you are than your replacement?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Isn't your value to your team determined by how much better you are than your replacement?

No it is determined by how much prodution you give them. Not to mention the lineup you play with and against can impact the number as well. If James goes out of the game the other team is likely to take out its best defensive player (assuming that is who is guarding James) because you try to get him rest when James isnt in because he plays so much. So a player on the court for Miami is now playing against a lineup w/o its best defensive player which artificially inflates the replacements +/-. Plus in a 5 on 5 situation an individual player can only have so much impact on scoring and scoring prevention. In theory if everyone was equal on a given team then they would all contribute 20% to offense and defense while on the court. But obviously that isnt reality but even the top players like James/Durant/Kobe etc can only have so much impact on scoring or defending. Other factors are starters are begining the game facing other starters (usually the other teams best players with a few notable exceptions like Harden and Ginobelli) and are playing the tougher to score minutes at the end of games. Backups are getting more time against other backups and there is sometimes a huge difference between players 5,6 and 7 on bad teams and good teams.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No it is determined by how much prodution you give them. Not to mention the lineup you play with and against can impact the number as well.

Ok. I see what you're saying.

Still, it's hard to disregard the fact that Lebron James' teams get outscored every single year when he isn't on the court, and that they absolutely dominate like no other team in the NBA every single year when he is on the court.

This stat aside -- how well do you think his teams would have done without him for the entire last four seasons?

Do you think they would have been better than .500?

Which of his last four teams was the best team? The Cleveland team that went 66-16

The 2nd leading scorer on that team was Mo Williams (he played 54 games and made just one start this season) and the 3rd leading scorer was Zydrunas Ilgauskas (The Big Z!) and he was comically uncooridanted and is out of the NBA.

I don't know much basketball -- and I understand your point about all of the flaws that come into play with the +/- stat ... and I don't even like anything about Ledouche James ... but everything I look at points to him being clear-cut the best player in the NBA every single year for the last four years.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It's not so much a stat -- it's just a running score of how the team did when the player was on the floor.

For instance:

'11-12 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 474 points
'11-12 Miami Heat without James on the floor: outscored by 80 points

'10-11 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 619 points
'10-11 Miami Heat without James on the floor: Outscored by 4 points

'09-10 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 650 points
'09-10 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 117 points

'08-09 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 871 points
'08-09 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 142 points


So, over the last four years...

When James is on the court... his team wins by 2,614 points.

When James isn't on the court ... his team loses by 343 points.


That simply tells me he's more valuable to his team than any other player.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2012/fin...ls=st&g=2&t=bs

Last night Derek Fisher was terrible. He couldnt hit open shots, had no assists, 1 rebound and was no factor on defense except for maybe 1 or 2 plays. He was +13. Kevin Durant was Kevin Durant and he was a -9.