KY Derby Point System

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Daddy Long Legs had 100 points.

Arazi, Sweetnorthernsaint, War Emblem, Charismatic, Mine That Bird, Lemon Drop Kid, Birdstone, Ten Most Wanted, Eight Belles, Giacomo, and Sea Hero --- they had a combined total of 104 points and all ran in the Ky Derby.

So, Daddy Long Legs (100 points) VS 5 different Kentucky Derby winners, two others who were post time favorite in the Derby, and 4 different Travers winners with 104 points.

Did this even make the Kentucky Derby organizer's radar?

[slotdirt]

Things pop up now and again that make people complain about the graded earnings system (Danthebluegrassman, Homeboykris come to mind).

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Things pop up now and again that make people complain about the graded earnings system (Danthebluegrassman, Homeboykris come to mind).

Danthebluegrassman bumped out Windward Passage (who finished 4th in the Lone Star Derby after being denied a stall in the KY Derby -- Windward Passage never again won a stakes race and finished his career as a $5,000 claimer)

Homeboykris bumped out A Little Warm, who was next in line.

[Mike]

The new system sets up nicely as a Game system for an audience. In fact, it coincides perfectly with the Road To The Roses Fantasy game.
However, it may cause some havoc in the real world of horse racing, and the Derby trail. Forget the 2 yo races, they won't be at all important anymore. This may lead to a greater stress on young 3 yo's in a short period of time (February-April) and increased amount of high profile horse breakdowns.

[tector]

So I guess fillies have to go against the boys early in their 3YO campaigns or they are SOL?

[pba1817]

The top point earner among the filly only races could get an invite...

100 points for the UAE Derby when the BC Juvenile is valued at 10 points is laughable, and makes one think of total and complete bribery...

By offering only 10 points to some of the key 2yo end of season races, you are basically going to see many horses(especially relevant horses) skip these races altogether pointing towards the large point valued races.

Are we going to have 15+ horse fields in the key prep races? Auxiliary gates? Or AE lists 10 deep?

[Cannon Shell]

One of my chief concerns is the spread of points is far too great. The 1st and 2nd place finishers of the 100 point stakes are all but assured of being in if they had accumulated any points previously. Plus with the UAE Derby unlikely to get many American shippers you have made the entries in these races contentious which could lead to trouble as graded earning are usually used for preference and those pesky sprinters might get in the way again.

Just find it hard to believe that the Sunland Derby is 5 times more valuable than the Champagne and the UAE Derby is 10 times more valuable than the BC Juvy. The spread is just way too much.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Did this even make the Kentucky Derby organizer's radar?

I suppose they could try and say something like "you can't compare this system with past years, because the connections of the horses in past years would have planned differently and got the points"

But, in many cases, that is simply 100% not true.

War Emblem tried the Fairgrounds route -- He was dusted in the Risen Star. They had abandoned any Derby hopes for him and took him home for the Illi Derby. Even after he destroyed Repent and ran a 112 Beyer in the ILLI Derby -- his connections weren't going to run him in the Derby. Baffert came in and bought him. War Emblem (A Derby, Preakness, and Haskell winner) would never have qualified. He had 0 points and nothing about his prep schedule would have changed.

Lukas rushed Proud Citizen back for a bid at the Derby. PC ran 7th in the SA Derby. He wasn't in a position where he could have done anything different.

Even if you say 'well, connections would have just planned different' -- ah no, third place finisher Perfect Drift is the Kentucky Derby winner in 2002.

[Thunder Gulch]

They could have just tweaked the graded earnings system by discounting the 2yo and filly races, and we could have a better system. I was always irked by the cry for somebody on the bubble who scheduled a 2 prep spring and then fell short of expectations in one of them. I agree completely that 2yo races and sprints should be discounted, but not by a 10-1 ratio. If you're going to do that, how about discounting your beloved Bluegrass since it's not on dirt? The breeders will never let that happen, but with so much emphasis on the March/April races, the Bluegrass will become more irrelevant than ever in terms of producing Derby contenders, and instead will continue a parade of turf bred misfits. If you have a proven dirt Derby contender needing a few more points, do you go to Keenland?

The other thing I don't like is that they are assigning the races to run and taking it out of the track hands. Somewhere like Sunland bumps purses to try to make themselves a relevant Derby prep, but it would now be hard for somebody else to step up to the plate putting money in the game because nobody will take that route since Churchill says it isn't the way to go.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

They could have just tweaked the graded earnings system by discounting the 2yo and filly races, and we could have a better system.

First of all -- who are all of the fillies who have raced in the Kentucky Derby that didn't belong?

Here is a list of every filly to race in the Derby since 1945:

2010 Devil May Care
2008 Eight Belles
1999 Excellent Meeting
1999 Three Ring
1995 Serena's Song
1988 Winning Colors
1984 Life's Magic
1984 Althea
1982 Cupecoy's Joy
1980 Genuine Risk
1959 Silver Spoon

That's a pretty outstanding collection right there. 2 of the 11 even won the race.

But, I know, My Adonis needs and deserves to be in the starting gate -- over these undeserving fillies.

And Grade 1 two-year-old route racing is more interesting and often more truly run races than the Derby preps. A lot of top 2-year-olds don't come back to form at age 3, but it's often because of physical setbacks and they rarely make the Derby -- and when they do -- they're virtually never taking the spot of a better horse.

You're basically just eliminating horses like Birdstone and Lemon Drop Kid who were outstanding Grade 1 winning 2yo routers -- but had a few minor setbacks and performed poorly in the Derby preps. Is My Adonis more deserving because he clunked up for 3rd in the Holy Bull and 2nd Gotham and 4th in the Wood Memorial?

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I suppose they could try and say something like "you can't compare this system with past years, because the connections of the horses in past years would have planned differently and got the points"

But, in many cases, that is simply 100% not true.

War Emblem tried the Fairgrounds route -- He was dusted in the Risen Star. They had abandoned any Derby hopes for him and took him home for the Illi Derby. Even after he destroyed Repent and ran a 112 Beyer in the ILLI Derby -- his connections weren't going to run him in the Derby. Baffert came in and bought him. War Emblem (A Derby, Preakness, and Haskell winner) would never have qualified. He had 0 points and nothing about his prep schedule would have changed.

Lukas rushed Proud Citizen back for a bid at the Derby. PC ran 7th in the SA Derby. He wasn't in a position where he could have done anything different.

Even if you say 'well, connections would have just planned different' -- ah no, third place finisher Perfect Drift is the Kentucky Derby winner in 2002.

Nope, Drift would have finished 3rd to two others. Its what the Drift did best.
All/ All/ Drift

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Nope, Drift would have finished 3rd to two others. Its what the Drift did best.
All/ All/ Drift

Not until much later on.

Perfect Drift was a killer at ages 3 and 4.