A great day for the sport.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's Saratoga also. The million dollar question is how to make it happen at more places. How do we convince everyone else what a great time our sport is to watch and participate in? How can we show them they are missing out if they aren't there?

I don't have the answer but it feels like educating them about the game further can only help. Horses racing longer, so people actually can follow a horses career for more than a few months will help.

There's no way to post this without sounding like a shameless self-promoter, but at least there were some efforts made with regards to educating people who were there outside of the info that can be gathered from the NYRA feed with Andy, Maggie, etc.

America's Best Racing sponsored a fan education area with Horse Player NOW, and we wound up with two sets of teams to do the kind of fan education that at least helps casual bettors feel like they aren't just randomly picking horses and betting against themselves.

One area inside for foot traffic in the plant, and another out back by the wagering pavilion, and we saw some of the same people who found us in the Preakness infield just a few weeks earlier when we hosted a tent there with the Daily Racing Form.

It's remarkable, really, just how little help many of these people need to get even the most cursory handle on things. Lots of these casual, big event, fans are sharper than I/we give them credit for, but if they don't know where to start, they're going to get lost in the shuffle. It's all about logistics and money, for sure, but I know from firsthand experience at Pimlico the last three years and at Belmont Saturday that these kind of casual bettors CAN be turned into more serious players. It's not easy, but it's possible.

It really was a great day there, and the energy was surprisingly positive given the scratch of IHA.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

There's no way to post this without sounding like a shameless self-promoter, but at least there were some efforts made with regards to educating people who were there outside of the info that can be gathered from the NYRA feed with Andy, Maggie, etc.

America's Best Racing sponsored a fan education area with Horse Player NOW, and we wound up with two sets of teams to do the kind of fan education that at least helps casual bettors feel like they aren't just randomly picking horses and betting against themselves.

One area inside for foot traffic in the plant, and another out back by the wagering pavilion, and we saw some of the same people who found us in the Preakness infield just a few weeks earlier when we hosted a tent there with the Daily Racing Form.

It's remarkable, really, just how little help many of these people need to get even the most cursory handle on things. Lots of these casual, big event, fans are sharper than I/we give them credit for, but if they don't know where to start, they're going to get lost in the shuffle. It's all about logistics and money, for sure, but I know from firsthand experience at Pimlico the last three years and at Belmont Saturday that these kind of casual bettors CAN be turned into more serious players. It's not easy, but it's possible.

It really was a great day there, and the energy was surprisingly positive given the scratch of IHA.

I saw a video of some of the work you did and it was great stuff. You should be shamelessly self promoting it, because it's a great idea.

Totally agree with what you have said here. Teach them...and they are much more likely to come back.

[Sightseek]

Did anyone else hear the Elliot in the Morning show in the DC area today?

It was painful to listen to them talk about horseracing and it was clear that he had been reading the NY Times articles and unfortunately his trips to Belmont Park on a weekday, and Pimlico during the Preakness, didn't help any to form a more positive opinion. It went far beyond doped and broken down horses -- the idea that all tracks are dirty, the patrons are drugged degenerates, the game robs people etc. A lot of my friends ride horses and have seen the "thrown away" thoroughbred and unfortunately that is the image that they base the entire industry on. The game needs a major image rehaul and is doing a terrible job of getting the entire story out. Our own instruments of exposing people to the game are even working against us...was it necessary for NBC to reshow and isolate on Giant Ryan breaking down? Or the tracks that think they are doing a service by providing 3 or 4 horses by their on-track experts -- what does that provide? A quick way to lose money is what is provides. Honestly, figuring out who the best horse is is pretty easy -- it's figuring out how to use that horse to make good money is what is going to attract people.

[Calzone Lord]

Educating new fans and current bettors is all well and good -- but they're going to need a whole lot of disposable time and income and they're going to struggle against that rake.

It's a noble but wasted effort.

You have to detach the "suckers game" label that cripples the sport so badly.

Younger people will educate themselves. Poker is absolutely dominated by young people. Many of the best players in the world are only in their 20's.

I believe horse racing could certainly become a lot bigger deal than sports like the NFL, MLB, and NBA if you see a combination of betting exchanges, in-race betting, and low exotic takeout rates in play.

A show like SportsCenter would ultimately feature at least as much horse racing coverage as it would for any other sport.

It wouldn't be a big deal for serious people who know nothing about horse racing right now to eventually be betting $20,000 - $40,000 -- $50,000 on a race. More horses would be bred, tracks that really ought to be closed would thrive. The whole industry would be a ton better off.

Anyone who thinks that's unrealistic is clueless as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't address the suckers game label -- you're just staying in the same old position you're in right now.

You need 7-day a week fans that will carry the water and bet at least hundreds of dollars on several races each day -- these type of people don't care about horse racing right now.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Educating new fans and current bettors is all well and good -- but they're going to need a whole lot of disposable time and income and they're going to struggle against that rake.

It's a noble but wasted effort.

You have to detach the "suckers game" label that cripples the sport so badly.

Younger people will educate themselves. Poker is absolutely dominated by young people. Many of the best players in the world are only in their 20's.

I believe horse racing could certainly become a lot bigger deal than sports like the NFL, MLB, and NBA if you see a combination of betting exchanges, in-race betting, and low exotic takeout rates in play.

A show like SportsCenter would ultimately feature at least as much horse racing coverage as it would for any other sport.

It wouldn't be a big deal for serious people who know nothing about horse racing right now to eventually be betting $20,000 - $40,000 -- $50,000 on a race. More horses would be bred, tracks that really ought to be closed would thrive. The whole industry would be a ton better off.

Anyone who thinks that's unrealistic is clueless as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't address the suckers game label -- you're just staying in the same old position you're in right now.

You need 7-day a week fans that will carry the water and bet at least hundreds of dollars on several races each day -- these type of people don't care about horse racing right now.

What are your ideas for in race betting? How would this work?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by 3kings

What are your ideas for in race betting? How would this work?

It's something fairly new in Europe that would be much better suited for dirt racing where pace is more important and running style tactics can be harder to predict.

Here's an example of the odds moving in-running on an eventual winner. The odds are in the right hand corner. The Eventual winner goes from as low as 3-1 odds at one point in the race to as high as 23-1 odds on the far turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkrbE...feature=relmfu


Here's an example of what the betting screen looks like during the race with the prices moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVQc2YVgXwc

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Educating new fans and current bettors is all well and good -- but they're going to need a whole lot of disposable time and income and they're going to struggle against that rake.

It's a noble but wasted effort.

You have to detach the "suckers game" label that cripples the sport so badly.

Younger people will educate themselves. Poker is absolutely dominated by young people. Many of the best players in the world are only in their 20's.

I believe horse racing could certainly become a lot bigger deal than sports like the NFL, MLB, and NBA if you see a combination of betting exchanges, in-race betting, and low exotic takeout rates in play.

A show like SportsCenter would ultimately feature at least as much horse racing coverage as it would for any other sport.

It wouldn't be a big deal for serious people who know nothing about horse racing right now to eventually be betting $20,000 - $40,000 -- $50,000 on a race. More horses would be bred, tracks that really ought to be closed would thrive. The whole industry would be a ton better off.

Anyone who thinks that's unrealistic is clueless as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't address the suckers game label -- you're just staying in the same old position you're in right now.

You need 7-day a week fans that will carry the water and bet at least hundreds of dollars on several races each day -- these type of people don't care about horse racing right now.

Every time I read one of these posts I am forced to reflect on my own gambling. In a casino I will only play craps and will only play correctly since anything else is a suckers game. Then I gamble on horses...

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Every time I read one of these posts I am forced to reflect on my own gambling. In a casino I will only play craps and will only play correctly since anything else is a suckers game. Then I gamble on horses...

Me too - throw in sit down poker also (not Carribbean Stud or Three Card). If you are going to play a "negative expectation" game, craps is the best one by far.

Always play double odds and get that vig down to 0.6%. Bypass the hardways and play either place or come bets (again with double odds). It won't take too much of a streak to come out positive against the low vig.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Me too - throw in sit down poker also (not Carribbean Stud or Three Card). If you are going to play a "negative expectation" game, craps is the best one by far.

Always play double odds and get that vig down to 0.6%. Bypass the hardways and play either place or come bets (again with double odds). It won't take too much of a streak to come out positive against the low vig.

I am a three come better after the point table min+max odds. While very rarely hitting home runs I do pretty well over time.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Educating new fans and current bettors is all well and good -- but they're going to need a whole lot of disposable time and income and they're going to struggle against that rake.

It's a noble but wasted effort.

You have to detach the "suckers game" label that cripples the sport so badly.

Younger people will educate themselves. Poker is absolutely dominated by young people. Many of the best players in the world are only in their 20's.

I believe horse racing could certainly become a lot bigger deal than sports like the NFL, MLB, and NBA if you see a combination of betting exchanges, in-race betting, and low exotic takeout rates in play.

A show like SportsCenter would ultimately feature at least as much horse racing coverage as it would for any other sport.

It wouldn't be a big deal for serious people who know nothing about horse racing right now to eventually be betting $20,000 - $40,000 -- $50,000 on a race. More horses would be bred, tracks that really ought to be closed would thrive. The whole industry would be a ton better off.

Anyone who thinks that's unrealistic is clueless as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't address the suckers game label -- you're just staying in the same old position you're in right now.

You need 7-day a week fans that will carry the water and bet at least hundreds of dollars on several races each day -- these type of people don't care about horse racing right now.

The difference is that in other sports people can watch the games and not have even the slightest clue and still enjoy them. People may have played these sports as kids and have a basic understanding even though they are still pretty clueless. In horse racing that just doesn't work plus for the gambling aspect to work you have to have rudimentary math skills and American kids arent exactly been mathmatic aces lately. It is far easier to bet sports as anyone can understand point spreads and over/unders.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The difference is that in other sports people can watch the games and not have even the slightest clue and still enjoy them. People may have played these sports as kids and have a basic understanding even though they are still pretty clueless. In horse racing that just doesn't work plus for the gambling aspect to work you have to have rudimentary math skills and American kids arent exactly been mathmatic aces lately. It is far easier to bet sports as anyone can understand point spreads and over/unders.

The math you need to do in Poker is a lot more difficult -- and so many of the top players are very young.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The math you need to do in Poker is a lot more difficult -- and so many of the top players are very young.

I don't agree at all. Using math to understand theories of figure making and properly constucting tickets is far more complicated than sitting there waiting for the jack of hearts which is how the vast majority of people play. High stakes Poker between the very best players is a different story but that is .0000001% of the players.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Is that so?

I should pay attention to your posts, perhaps.

What is the percentage of the favorite hitting the board?

Take Preakness day for an example, which is what the newbie fan will be watching:
http://www.equibase.com/static/chart...12USA-EQB.html

Teaching the newbie fan how to make money with these favorites vs. just throwing out 3 or 4 horses is much more valuable, which was my point.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Teaching the newbie fan how to make money with these favorites vs. just throwing out 3 or 4 horses is much more valuable, which was my point.

I totally agree that the 3 to 4 horse thing isn't really helping a newbie. But do we really want to teach people to identify the favorite every race and try and make money with it?

I don't have the right answer, and I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong. Of course everyone isn't going to "understand" everything about handicapping. But, as we all eventually did, we got introduced and found a method we use. I just wonder if oversimplifying things would become counterproductive.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I totally agree that the 3 to 4 horse thing isn't really helping a newbie. But do we really want to teach people to identify the favorite every race and try and make money with it?

I don't have the right answer, and I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong. Of course everyone isn't going to "understand" everything about handicapping. But, as we all eventually did, we got introduced and found a method we use. I just wonder if oversimplifying things would become counterproductive.

Exposure or lack of is also a big problem facing the game. How many newbies who were at Belmont on Saturday, would know how to access (not even talk about betting yet) races just to watch? After a while of watching, you would hope that some of these people would start wanting to bet some races. Obviously educating these fans and teaching them how to cap is an issue that some what goes hand in hand with this. But, this is an area that I thought NYRA did a poor job this weekend. They should have had kiosks promoting NYRA Awards accounts. Explain to people that don't know, that you can watch and wager at home. Give people 20% (random number) towards their account for every dollar they deposit. At least throw the net out and try to gain some more interest in the sport. Like I said, I really thought that they dropped the ball in this aspect.

Doug brings up poker, it's programmed and advertised on consistent basis. The more I think about it, he could be on to something with the exchange wagering idea. Poker players could go hours without playing a hand, so that needing the constant action/thrill isn't really an issue. I almost look at it like the way people day trade. I'm still not 100% how it works, but from what I know it's really a very interesting concept.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I totally agree that the 3 to 4 horse thing isn't really helping a newbie. But do we really want to teach people to identify the favorite every race and try and make money with it?

I don't have the right answer, and I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong. Of course everyone isn't going to "understand" everything about handicapping. But, as we all eventually did, we got introduced and found a method we use. I just wonder if oversimplifying things would become counterproductive.

The NYRA format is already far and away closest to the step that will educate the newbie given the wealth of information that is given and why one should or should select a particular horse. That said, rather than having Maggie tell you the 6 has dapples, why not have her sit in front of a computer and show how one would bet the horses given the information that Andy and Eric provided?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The NYRA format is already far and away closest to the step that will educate the newbie given the wealth of information that is given and why one should or should select a particular horse. That said, rather than having Maggie tell you the 6 has dapples, why not have her sit in front of a computer and show how one would bet the horses given the information that Andy and Eric provided?

I think Maggie's area of expertise in in how horses look physically, so she is supposed to be telling us who has dapples and whatnot. But, I agree (and think it's a great idea) that it would be beneficial to have someone showing people how to go about betting the horse or horses they like.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The NYRA format is already far and away closest to the step that will educate the newbie given the wealth of information that is given and why one should or should select a particular horse. That said, rather than having Maggie tell you the 6 has dapples, why not have her sit in front of a computer and show how one would bet the horses given the information that Andy and Eric provided?

I think a person in the paddock with a clue is a big positive as the info she gives isnt found on paper anywhere else. IMO you cant teach people how to construct tickets in between races, at least very well. I think the best way to educate people is push them to the sources we used when learning about the game including books by Beyer and others.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The NYRA format is already far and away closest to the step that will educate the newbie given the wealth of information that is given and why one should or should select a particular horse. That said, rather than having Maggie tell you the 6 has dapples, why not have her sit in front of a computer and show how one would bet the horses given the information that Andy and Eric provided?

Maggie does A LOT more than that. Take the 6th race today as an example. She remarked not only that she liked the impression that Won Wild Dude made in the paddock but also that his small feet made him likely to handle the slop well. She also said that Driven By Solar, the favorite, was not his normal self in the paddock and was going first off a claim by Jacobson from Pletcher.

That is useful information IMO.