A great day for the sport.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by phystech

Interesting thread.

I completely understand Steve's comments about Belmont Day. Being a Maryland owner and resident, I felt exactly the same way on Preakness Day. The only way I could have felt more proud that day was if I had a horse running in one of the races - any of the races - that day. I didn't care what the final times of any of the races were, or what the class of the race was, it simply was a wonderful day to be a MD'er, an owner, and to be at Pimlico.

It sucks to see too many bashing Belmont Day just like they did Preakness Day.

The best thing racing has going for it are the bettors. The worst thing racing has going for it is the bettors. How do we reconcile that?

I saw no one here bash the Belmont day -- and certainly I don't know of one person or one entity that has bashed this years Preakness day.

Big crowds and festive atmospheres are fun. I remember going into the infield on Preakness day the year Point Given won and I loved it. Good looking college aged girls were being hoisted up and showing their tits every few minutes in different ares. I saw fights. I've been to toga parties in highschool that were way more civilized. It was wild.

I've been to the Derby five times. Great atmosphere. I've been to the Travers a couple times.

In the 1930's -- they'd get crowds of over 200,000 people on Ascot Gold Cup day and the environment was famous the world over.

You need 7-day a week fans who bet. Not people who want to drink and socialize and show up for big events three or four days a year and maybe bet $20 on a slowpoke like Ravelo's Boy who hasn't raced in 100 days.

They like to talk about "reaching" the new fans who show up for these races -- well that's good and I know they can do a better job of it. However, the people who they need to get are the people who aren't showing up at all on those days and have no plans to show up at a racetrack anytime soon. These are people that barely know horse racing exists.

In theory, It's very simple and obvious how you get them in force. You detach the "sucker game" label that haunts this sport. Doing this will also greatly empower the current bettors.

I tried to restrain myself from not saying anything in this thread -- but nothing is going to get better if people with vocal platforms want to make it a stride-for-stride myopian Us VS PETA and Us VS The NY Times argument.

Steve said I missed his point -- and I think he was also getting at those who thought the Belmont day would lose some of its sparkle without I'll Have Another running. I guess that's what the magical day stuff was about.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

They like to talk about "reaching" the new fans who show up for these races -- well that's good and I know they can do a better job of it. However, the people who they need to get are the people who aren't showing up at all on those days and have no plans to show up at a racetrack anytime soon. These are people that barely know horse racing exists.

In theory, It's very simple and obvious how you get them in force. You detach the "sucker game" label that haunts this sport. Doing this will also greatly empower the current bettors. .

There's only one time a year when a Belmont is going to have numbers like that, so it has to make some sort of push to get some repeat buisness.

My question is, how do you detatch the Sucker Game label?

[richard]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

There's only one time a year when a Belmont is going to have numbers like that, so it has to make some sort of push to get some repeat buisness.

My question is, how do you detatch the Sucker Game label?

Doesn't every gambling endeavor have the sucker label? I like Frank's idea of a horse racing lottery with huge payouts. But the politics won't allow it because lotteries are run by the states and they don't want that type of competition. The Rainbow 5 and the Super High 5 are steps in the right direction that lottery players may be able to get close to if it's promoted.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by richard

Doesn't every gambling endeavor have the sucker label? I like Frank's idea of a horse racing lottery with huge payouts. But the politics won't allow it because lotteries are run by the states and they don't want that type of competition. The Rainbow 5 and the Super High 5 are steps in the right direction that lottery players may be able to get close to if it's promoted.

I don't think the sucker label is thrown around with Poker much...and that's the closest model to match parimutuel wagering. Except that the rake in poker is miniscule compared to the confiscatory takeout.

And to an earlier point made by someone else about having to pay for past performance data, where they don't do that in South Africa or Australia and the takeout is too high, the problem is that the takeout is being "taken out" by the government - who contribute nothing to the operation of the game. And work costs money - always - including the work of compiling, preparing, data mining and publishing information for bettors to use.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

My question is, how do you detatch the Sucker Game label?

In theory it is very easy to do.

It starts with betting exchanges, in-race betting, and a return to low takeout. Low exotic takeout pools.

Pittsburgh Phil was a cork cutter making $5 a week with no formal education -- his initial goal in life was to be a harness trainer.

The people who play fantasy sports, poker, day-trade stock, the people I see by the hundreds when I go to the casino here at 4AM on a Monday and no booze is served ... people like that will come out of the woodwork. Those are the kind that can be useful 7day a week fans and bettors who can carry the water.


Climate a hundred years ago...

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

In theory it is very easy to do.

It starts with betting exchanges, in-race betting, and a return to low takeout. Low exotic takeout pools.

Pittsburgh Phil was a cork cutter making $5 a week with no formal education -- his initial goal in life was to be a harness trainer.

The people who play fantasy sports, poker, day-trade stock, the people I see by the hundreds when I go to the casino here at 4AM on a Monday and no booze is served ... people like that will come out of the woodwork. Those are the kind that can be useful 7day a week fans and bettors who can carry the water.

I think you could be on to something, but what about educating these people? I have always thought that one of the biggest problems that the sport faces, is the so-called "homework" that needs to be done. Let's face it, it can be a very time consuming process. To make matters worse, the majority of these people are going to need some sort of introduction even before they get to the "homework" stage.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I think you could be on to something, but what about educating these people? I have always thought that one of the biggest problems that the sport faces, is the so-called "homework" that needs to be done. Let's face it, it can be a very time consuming process. To make matters worse, the majority of these people are going to need some sort of introduction even before they get to the "homework" stage.

I had two casual bettors come up to me on Belmont Stakes day and ask me about Mizzen Mast and if he is a good turf sire.

They were wondering about a horse in the race after the Belmont named Tazered who had been repeatedly entered on the turf but never got to run on it yet.

I told them that Mizzen Mast actually moved up on dirt for Frankel but that he is a fair turf sire. I told them both the name they should know is the damsire Spinning World. He won a Breeders Cup Mile and was 2nd to DaHoss in another.

I told them the dam of the horse was 2-for-2 in France and Team Valor paid $400,000 for her to bring her here -- but she never held up to race here.

I told them where they could find such information on the Internet for free -- and I told them that if they're too lazy to look it up -- just pay attention to that tracks tv show because BTW will give a lot of information like that out.

These guys enjoy themselves here and play on the weekends...but they are hopeless against a 15-to-20% takeout. If they started to hold their own and taste winning more often ... they would try harder and bet more.

I see a poster here named Ogygian at PID a lot. On Saturday, he was telling me stories about how Jean Cruget is a terrible bettor and bets numbers off the board. Maybe even Jean Cruget would try and do some homework if he wasn't so up against it.

[10 pnt move up]

"but they are hopeless against a 15-to-20% takeout"

Ya gotta be pretty good to beat that take. I don't know much about handicapping but what little I do know usually impresses casual people, they always ask if I make money (not really) and basically all I could do is beat the take, imagine getting another 15-20% on top of the take to make money, very difficult to do.

[MaTH716]

Doug, at least these guys have a base. They have a chance to broaden their knowledge if they do choose so.

I'll use myself as an example,
I went to the track a handful of times when I was a kid, my old man gave me a few bucks to bet each race. He was a program name bettor and he always covered gray horses too. We always watched the Kentucky Derby and Pleasant Colony is the first horse I remember.

We continued to go to the track once in a while as I got older and I really enjoyed it. I would bet names or go off what the track handicappers said. I would try to decipher what was in the program, but to no avail. Also when I started to drive, I would go to OTB and put in my own Derby bets.

I started working in the finacial industry when I was 19. Not only did everyone seem to bet on sports, they loved betting the horses (someone always had a supposed hot horse). I would end up going to the track a few times with the older guys I worked with, it was always alot of fun, that's when I picked up a form for the first time. It might as well been printed in Chinese. But I wanted to learn, so I went out and bought two books (Handicapping for Dummies and Betting Thoroughbreds) and tried to teach myself about reading a form and learning about the game.

I would eventually open a NYCOTB phone betting account. On weekends (especially in the winter) I would throw $50-80 bucks in the account and spend the day playing. My betting strategies and thought process behind it were terrible, but I really did enjoy myself. I really liked the game. Obviously, I deposited more than I withdrew.

When I turned 21, I took a bus trip to Atlantic City for the first time, I won $200 bucks and actually said to my friend on the ride home "how does this place stay in buisness?" We all know how that turned out, but there was a span there where my friends and I would go to AC every weekend. It was a given, it could be any day, any time, but we would always end up there. Obviously during this time, I got away from racing and the track. Then one day, I went on a golf outing and we ended up going to Monmouth after. I forgot how much fun the track was and enjoyed myself so much. It hit me that I would rather spend time there and play races versus constantly going to AC.

So I started to play more often. I would hang out in OTB's or play from home. I still bet like a mental patient (mostly exacta's and tri's), but I always have looked at it like it was a hobby (and I still feel the same today). I felt like I had an idea what I was doing and enjoyed the challange of putting that handicapping puzzle together. Even when my wife and I were dating, we would go to Monmouth and spend the day. We would both have a great time.

I ended up meeting Andy (we worked together) and he was always talking/watching horses. He would talk shop with anyone who wanted to chat. I think back to that time and am actually sorry that I didn't take more advantage of having him there. But we would talk, I would tell him about a horse I like and he would tell me how he could put on a horse costume and beat the horse I wanted to bet. But that's Andy and it's why everyone loves him so much. He tells it as it is. This was before he was a star, but he is still missed by a lot of guys down here.

But Andy is the one who steered me to Derby Trail. Not only have I made many friends here, but I have learned so much from many of you guys. And that knowledge I have picked up has made me want to learn more. It's made me read books like exotic betting and so on. Now I'm not afraid to make any wager at the track and actually perfer the multi's. Although at times I still bet and think like a mental midget. But through the years I really have developed a love for this game and still strive to learn more and get better. I still understand that I'm not going to get rich playing, but I really feel like I have a chance to make decent scores here and there. I'm still depositing more than I'm withdrwing, but thankfully I go to the window more often these days (definitely not Saturday though).

I guess all I'm trying to say in this long winded post is that all the sport needs is some exposure and re-enforcement. Give the people the means to get better while understanding and educating themselves about the game. Let's face it people are lazy, I did it the hard way, but give them the blueprint to understanding how to play the game. For now forget about the takeout, forget about the shady trainers just try to get the seed planted about how great the game is and how much fun getting out to the track can be.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Doug, at least these guys have a base. They have a chance to broaden their knowledge if they do choose so.

I'll use myself as an example,
I went to the track a handful of times when I was a kid, my old man gave me a few bucks to bet each race. He was a program name bettor and he always covered gray horses too. We always watched the Kentucky Derby and Pleasant Colony is the first horse I remember.

We continued to go to the track once in a while as I got older and I really enjoyed it. I would bet names or go off what the track handicappers said. I would try to decipher what was in the program, but to no avail. Also when I started to drive, I would go to OTB and put in my own Derby bets.

I started working in the finacial industry when I was 19. Not only did everyone seem to bet on sports, they loved betting the horses (someone always had a supposed hot horse). I would end up going to the track a few times with the older guys I worked with, it was always alot of fun, that's when I picked up a form for the first time. It might as well been printed in Chinese. But I wanted to learn, so I went out and bought two books (Handicapping for Dummies and Betting Thoroughbreds) and tried to teach myself about reading a form and learning about the game.

I would eventually open a NYCOTB phone betting account. On weekends (especially in the winter) I would throw $50-80 bucks in the account and spend the day playing. My betting strategies and thought process behind it were terrible, but I really did enjoy myself. I really liked the game. Obviously, I deposited more than I withdrew.

When I turned 21, I took a bus trip to Atlantic City for the first time, I won $200 bucks and actually said to my friend on the ride home "how does this place stay in buisness?" We all know how that turned out, but there was a span there where my friends and I would go to AC every weekend. It was a given, it could be any day, any time, but we would always end up there. Obviously during this time, I got away from racing and the track. Then one day, I went on a golf outing and we ended up going to Monmouth after. I forgot how much fun the track was and enjoyed myself so much. It hit me that I would rather spend time there and play races versus constantly going to AC.

So I started to play more often. I would hang out in OTB's or play from home. I still bet like a mental patient (mostly exacta's and tri's), but I always have looked at it like it was a hobby (and I still feel the same today). I felt like I had an idea what I was doing and enjoyed the challange of putting that handicapping puzzle together. Even when my wife and I were dating, we would go to Monmouth and spend the day. We would both have a great time.

I ended up meeting Andy (we worked together) and he was always talking/watching horses. He would talk shop with anyone who wanted to chat. I think back to that time and am actually sorry that I didn't take more advantage of having him there. But we would talk, I would tell him about a horse I like and he would tell me how he could put on a horse costume and beat the horse I wanted to bet. But that's Andy and it's why everyone loves him so much. He tells it as it is. This was before he was a star, but he is still missed by a lot of guys down here.

But Andy is the one who steered me to Derby Trail. Not only have I made many friends here, but I have learned so much from many of you guys. And that knowledge I have picked up has made me want to learn more. It's made me read books like exotic betting and so on. Now I'm not afraid to make any wager at the track and actually perfer the multi's. Although at times I still bet and think like a mental midget. But through the years I really have developed a love for this game and still strive to learn more and get better. I still understand that I'm not going to get rich playing, but I really feel like I have a chance to make decent scores here and there. I'm still depositing more than I'm withdrwing, but thankfully I go to the window more often these days (definitely not Saturday though).

I guess all I'm trying to say in this long winded post is that all the sport needs is some exposure and re-enforcement. Give the people the means to get better while understanding and educating themselves about the game. Let's face it people are lazy, I did it the hard way, but give them the blueprint to understanding how to play the game. For now forget about the takeout, forget about the shady trainers just try to get the seed planted about how great the game is and how much fun getting out to the track can be.

Aside from meeting Andy (picked up the site off ATR on Sirius) and where I worked (when I lived back East) this is my story except my old man is a avid (relatively speaking) player. I think this story is the same for a lot of NJ people in their late 20s to early 40s.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Doug, at least these guys have a base. They have a chance to broaden their knowledge if they do choose so.

I'll use myself as an example,
I went to the track a handful of times when I was a kid, my old man gave me a few bucks to bet each race. He was a program name bettor and he always covered gray horses too. We always watched the Kentucky Derby and Pleasant Colony is the first horse I remember.

We continued to go to the track once in a while as I got older and I really enjoyed it. I would bet names or go off what the track handicappers said. I would try to decipher what was in the program, but to no avail. Also when I started to drive, I would go to OTB and put in my own Derby bets.

I started working in the finacial industry when I was 19. Not only did everyone seem to bet on sports, they loved betting the horses (someone always had a supposed hot horse). I would end up going to the track a few times with the older guys I worked with, it was always alot of fun, that's when I picked up a form for the first time. It might as well been printed in Chinese. But I wanted to learn, so I went out and bought two books (Handicapping for Dummies and Betting Thoroughbreds) and tried to teach myself about reading a form and learning about the game.

I would eventually open a NYCOTB phone betting account. On weekends (especially in the winter) I would throw $50-80 bucks in the account and spend the day playing. My betting strategies and thought process behind it were terrible, but I really did enjoy myself. I really liked the game. Obviously, I deposited more than I withdrew.

When I turned 21, I took a bus trip to Atlantic City for the first time, I won $200 bucks and actually said to my friend on the ride home "how does this place stay in buisness?" We all know how that turned out, but there was a span there where my friends and I would go to AC every weekend. It was a given, it could be any day, any time, but we would always end up there. Obviously during this time, I got away from racing and the track. Then one day, I went on a golf outing and we ended up going to Monmouth after. I forgot how much fun the track was and enjoyed myself so much. It hit me that I would rather spend time there and play races versus constantly going to AC.

So I started to play more often. I would hang out in OTB's or play from home. I still bet like a mental patient (mostly exacta's and tri's), but I always have looked at it like it was a hobby (and I still feel the same today). I felt like I had an idea what I was doing and enjoyed the challange of putting that handicapping puzzle together. Even when my wife and I were dating, we would go to Monmouth and spend the day. We would both have a great time.

I ended up meeting Andy (we worked together) and he was always talking/watching horses. He would talk shop with anyone who wanted to chat. I think back to that time and am actually sorry that I didn't take more advantage of having him there. But we would talk, I would tell him about a horse I like and he would tell me how he could put on a horse costume and beat the horse I wanted to bet. But that's Andy and it's why everyone loves him so much. He tells it as it is. This was before he was a star, but he is still missed by a lot of guys down here.

But Andy is the one who steered me to Derby Trail. Not only have I made many friends here, but I have learned so much from many of you guys. And that knowledge I have picked up has made me want to learn more. It's made me read books like exotic betting and so on. Now I'm not afraid to make any wager at the track and actually perfer the multi's. Although at times I still bet and think like a mental midget. But through the years I really have developed a love for this game and still strive to learn more and get better. I still understand that I'm not going to get rich playing, but I really feel like I have a chance to make decent scores here and there. I'm still depositing more than I'm withdrwing, but thankfully I go to the window more often these days (definitely not Saturday though).

I guess all I'm trying to say in this long winded post is that all the sport needs is some exposure and re-enforcement. Give the people the means to get better while understanding and educating themselves about the game. Let's face it people are lazy, I did it the hard way, but give them the blueprint to understanding how to play the game. For now forget about the takeout, forget about the shady trainers just try to get the seed planted about how great the game is and how much fun getting out to the track can be.

Great post.

The vids on Youtube are awesome. I'm going to send this video in my aol e-mail account to all of my internet friends. I might even fire up ICQ and spam it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGS53tEmom8

[pointman]

I was there Saturday and can totally understand where Steve is coming from. Despite everyone expecting to witness history just 24 hours prior, the mood was very positive. The place was packed and people were really enjoying themselves. It felt like the racing days when I was a kid. Don't get me started on all the gorgeous women dressed to the nines.

Was it the best product of racing? Absolutely not. But I did not get the sense that anyone really cared that they had witnessed a slow Belmont with an average field that IHA would have likely destroyed. Overall, NYRA did a very good job in putting on the product they had to work with. Could they have done better? I agree with Matt that they could have done more promotion and tried to promote other events. They could have done more to teach people to wager or even worked something out to promote Night School.

Having gone straight to AC afterwards gave me an interesting perspective with regard to drawing in the neophytes who had attended that day. The problem with drawing in new fans is that we live in a society today where people want instant gratification and don't want to put much effort into it. Horse racing is a game that takes time to learn and requires time and effort to succeed. In AC I watched people gambling staggering amounts on games where they put almost no effort and either won or lost very quickly. But many people love puzzles and there are no greater puzzles on a daily basis than those in the DRF.

Maybe horse racing should take a cue and try to get into the casino crowd. It would take some thought as to how to actually structure some new wagers and the pools, but the industry could try to make some wagers similar to those that are offered by casinos and consider lowering the takeouts to those similar to casinos. Why not try things such as triples or pick three's where you can get fixed odds on all odd or all even numbered horses or a straight to fill the slots or something like that? Over/under of the total of the numbers of the first 3 horses in the trifecta or pick three? Have a wager where certain odds are paid on the same number winning 3 races in a row like a slot machine?

I know there are different field sizes and scratches, but I am sure things can be innovative and the industry can try these things on big days to draw in people to an easy level which will ultimately get a percentage of them to want to learn more and learn how to play the wagers we have now.

Having said that, I had a terrific day with my father, brother, brother in law and some friends that everyone, not all horse players, thoroughly enjoyed. I also got to hang out a bit with some great handicapping DT posters and enjoyed every second of the day and found it much more enjoyable than AC. In fact, Sunday morning I could not wait to pass on playing on the tables and start hightailing myself back to NYC to play Hollywood.