Big Browns crop

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Yes -- without a doubt. His race on the wet track in the Breeders Cup was one of the best performances by a 2yo in a long time.

I was going more towards 3yo triple crown form VS 4yo form.

Thanks. I kind of figured that.

It was an awful group. Is it possible any horse has ever gone for the Triple Crown off a worse Preakness than Big Brown? Has it ever even been close?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It was an awful group. Is it possible any horse has ever gone for the Triple Crown off a worse Preakness than Big Brown? Has it ever even been close?

I would have to go through some notebooks and look.

Canonero II would be one strong candidate.

[Calzone Lord]

Canonero II ran only 5 Beyer points faster in the Derby than the Twin Spires purse went one race earlier.

I didn't do a number for his Preakness though.

This is the 2nd place finisher to Seattle Slew in the Preakness:




This fine horse was also 7-to-1 against Slew in the Belmont Stakes.

[blackthroatedwind]

Slew beat some real mediocrities. No doubt. That's why a lot of fig guys were against him until the Fall of 1978.

He and Dr. Patches both ran at Saratoga before the Patterson, and their figs were extremely similar....which is why I bet Dr. Patches.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Slew beat some real mediocrities. No doubt. That's why a lot of fig guys were against him until the Fall of 1978.

He and Dr. Patches both ran at Saratoga before the Patterson, and their figs were extremely similar....which is why I bet Dr. Patches.

The weak competition he faced at age 3 really masked his development.

A horse like Discovery was beaten five or six times at age 3 by Cavalcade -- and was 2nd in a lot of major races to him like the Kentucky Derby on almost every occasion. Discovery really wasn't even that good until late in his 3yo season.

He became just about the most invincible horse you could imagine for about five straight months at age 4 and was a great horse as a 4yo and 5yo.

Seattle Slew had no Cavalcade in his crop.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thanks. I kind of figured that.

It was an awful group. Is it possible any horse has ever gone for the Triple Crown off a worse Preakness than Big Brown? Has it ever even been close?

I thought I was the only person thinking that. Hell, I thought he looked like he was about to break down in the Preakness stretch run.

[FATPIANO]

The Bid at 3, beat olders 2 out of 3, The Marlboro and The Meadowlands Cup(NTR), he came in second to Affirmed in The JCGC............

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

The Bid at 3, beat olders 2 out of 3, The Marlboro and The Meadowlands Cup(NTR), he came in second to Affirmed in The JCGC............

He beat General Assembly and Coastal, both super talented horses, but also both 3YOs, in the Marlboro Cup. Just because it was open to older horses doesn't mean his real competition were older horses.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He beat General Assembly and Coastal, both super talented horses, but also both 3YOs, in the Marlboro Cup. Just because it was open to older horses doesn't mean his real competition were older horses.

Star de Naskra was a useful competitor, won The Whitney and was a Champion Sprinter, Cox's Ridge also won major races like The Met Mile, Haskell etc.

[Perrault Robbed]

What Slew O' Gold did in the fall of his 3 year old season was remarkable.
How do his figures compare to his 4 years old campaign?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Perrault Robbed

What Slew O' Gold did in the fall of his 3 year old season was remarkable.
How do his figures compare to his 4 years old campaign?

Slew O' Gold was a Seattle Slew half brother to Coastal.

I don't have figures for Slew O' Gold. I looked and couldn't find anything -- and the DRF Archive site is down right now.

Coastal was one of the most underrated 3yo's you will ever see. When he won the Peter Pan Stakes by 13 lengths in his final Belmont Stakes prep -- he ran a 122 figure -- and that figure is based off of the Beyer pars of today...and not the Pars of eight years ago where it would have been a 126 or 127.

Interestingly, in the history of the Haskell, Coastal is the only horse to ever win carrying 127lbs or more. A few have failed to win under that impost (Spend a Buck, Little Current) -- Holy Bull carried 126lbs to victory.

Here is a link where I detailed the process for making old figs and used Coastal's Peter Pan as an example. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...hlight=Coastal

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He beat General Assembly and Coastal, both super talented horses, but also both 3YOs, in the Marlboro Cup. Just because it was open to older horses doesn't mean his real competition were older horses.

To your point Andy, the older horses in the Marlboro were Cox's Ridge, Star De Naskra and Text. General Assembly just came off his record setting performance in the Travers and Coastal was riding a four race winning streak with two Grade 1's. In fact, General Assembly beat Star Se Naskra in the Vosburgh in both of their next starts.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Revidere

To your point Andy, the older horses in the Marlboro were Cox's Ridge, Star De Naskra and Text. General Assembly just came off his record setting performance in the Travers and Coastal was riding a four race winning streak with two Grade 1's. In fact, General Assembly beat Star Se Naskra in the Vosburgh in both of their next starts.

that was my derby pick-loved that horse. and it's the main reason i didn't give bid his due at the time.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that was my derby pick-loved that horse. and it's the main reason i didn't give bid his due at the time.

A lot of fans felt the same way as you, and did not give The Bid his due, while he was racing, and I still do not understand, I thought he was great back then, and lookin back now, He was simply amazing in what he did.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Revidere

To your point Andy, the older horses in the Marlboro were Cox's Ridge, Star De Naskra and Text. General Assembly just came off his record setting performance in the Travers and Coastal was riding a four race winning streak with two Grade 1's. In fact, General Assembly beat Star Se Naskra in the Vosburgh in both of their next starts.

Here are some of the horses he beat that day.

* General Assembly (15-length Travers winner in a track record setting time at Saratoga that still stands to this day. The good Private Account was 3rd by 26 lengths in that Travers. General Assembly came back and won the Vosburgh against older horses next out.




* Coastal (was another monster speed figure horse -- he had just won the Haskell under 127lbs -- to this day the highest weight assignment carried to victory in the Haskell)




* Cox's Ridge (older horse, won 16 of 28 lifetime)




* Star De Naskra (had crossed the wire first in 7-races in a row, including a victory over Alydar in the Carter)

[Calzone Lord]

Some recent horses who set or approached monster speed figures at age 4:

Ghostzapper, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Mineshaft, Congaree, Mazel Trick, Commentator, Lava Man, Lawyer Ron, Midnight Lute, Groovy ran his 132 and 133 Beyers at age 4.

The fastest figure horses in all of history -- Gun Bow, Discovery, Spectacular Bid, Coaltown etc. did by far their best damage at age 4.

Harbinger ran the fastest Turf race I've ever encountered at age 4:




Mossflower is a forgotten horse who also freaked at age 4 and went to the sidelines:



The good filly Mariah's Storm -- dam of Giant's Causeway -- ran a 120 Beyer at age 4. Inside Information freaked at age 4 and won the Breeders Cup Distaff by a pole over a great group.

Lady's Secret obviously freaked in a big way at age 4.

Phar Lap was invincible at age 4 -- winning four different Group 1 races in a span of 7 days including the Melbourne Cup under 138lbs giving big weight all-around.

[blackthroatedwind]

I was there. Cox's Ridge and Star de Naskra was superior horses. They also didn't hit the board, that's how good those three 3YOs were.

[cmorioles]

Is is both fun and sad to look back at times when good horses actually raced each other more than once a year.