Lasix enhances performance

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

If

You dont know who will bleed or when, or how severely
You say lasix causes no harm to the horse when used,
Its clearly given info to bettors, And is available to all,

What is the problem? Cm, you say, and reference someone, who says lasix enhances performance. Yet ive seen others who say it does not. How is it an issue tho, if it did enhance but everyone uses it? Exactly what is it that you find so troublesome?

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

The information you want has been known for years. Read any basic pharmacology text. Lasix is a very well-used and common drug in multiple species, for decades.

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

In fact, our intimate knowledge of the difference in blood pH affects between heat, humidity, lasix, certain feeds, etc. and what a milkshake does is why testing TCO2 levels are set precisely where they are.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

Interesting. 2 weeks ago you blasted me for suggesting that lasix affects the acid-base status of a horse. Now you're acting like you're the one bringing that information to the table. Pathetic.

Me, 2 weeks ago:

...lasix has other effects aside from reducing the severity of bleeding, namely causing a ~3% decrease in body weight (ie upwards to 30lbs) and changing the acid-base balance of the blood (ie the same principle behind "milkshaking" albeit at a less dramatic level).

Your response:

No, lasix does NOT change the acid-base balance of the blood. Anybody who knows how this loop diuretic works knows that. If that were true, every horse given lasix would have a TCO2 positive.

Ah...the intricate cross-thread backpedal. Yet another deadly tool in your sizeable weapons cache of cyber-terrorism.

Well done.

[Riot]

]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Interesting. 2 weeks ago you blasted me for suggesting that lasix affects the acid-base status of a horse. Now you're acting like you're the one bringing that information to the table. Pathetic.

Because, as has been previously mentioned, the affect on the acid-base balance of one injection of furosemide at a measured dose and time is immediately and successfully attenuated by the body's normal acid-base physiologic compensatory mechanisms, resulting in changes that have been repeatedly measured to be minor and unaffecting of performance.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

]

Because, as has been previously mentioned, the affect on the acid-base balance of one injection of furosemide at a measured dose and time is immediately and successfully attenuated by the body's normal acid-base physiologic compensatory mechanisms, resulting in changes that have been repeatedly measured to be minor and unaffecting of performance.

spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

Why don't you go off and try to find out why the measurable TCO2 level of a horse on lasix (be it standing in a stall, running on a treadmill, running in a race, or in an intensive care unit at an equine hospital with acid/base disturbances) is between certain very well-known and predictable values, and the TCO2 of horses that have received illegal milkshakes or other alkalynizing agents is something else entirely?

Maybe check the NYT opinion page.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

]

Because, as has been previously mentioned, the affect on the acid-base balance of one injection of furosemide at a measured dose and time is immediately and successfully attenuated by the body's normal acid-base physiologic compensatory mechanisms, resulting in changes that have been repeatedly measured to be minor and unaffecting of performance.

The above sure reads like a "compensatory mechanism".

Don't be getting all acerbic on me now. Buffer your embarrasment some warm milk.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The above sure reads like a "compensatory mechanism".

Don't be getting all acerbic on me now. Buffer your embarrasment some warm milk.

And spell check.

I'm sorry you don't know basic, high-school physiology (ever hear of lactic acid?) thus feel compelled to make fun of what you don't know.

Once again, with feeling ...

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

In fact, our intimate knowledge of the difference in blood pH effects between heat, humidity, lasix, certain feeds, etc. and what a milkshake does is why testing TCO2 levels are set precisely where they are.

Because we know what pH a shot of lasix gives. And we know what pH alkalynizing agents get. They are different.

We have used furosemide internationally for 40 years in the horse, not to mention multiple other species. We know exactly what it does, and how, and why. This is simple, straightforward, basic medical science.

I'm done sparring with the loony conspiracy theorists.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm done sparring with the loony conspiracy theorists.

You were done when I exposed your cross-thread backpedal. Don't kid yourself.

You have been neutralized. I suggest going back to the basics.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

The side effects of lasix are minor at worst.

Anyone who believes that the horse had an adverse rection to lasix is a very trusting soul.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The side effects of lasix are minor at worst.

Anyone who believes that the horse had an adverse rection to lasix is a very trusting soul.

maybe she had a liver-ache.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

i think the fallout had to do with the fact that a lot of bettors lost out on betting a horse who should have been scratched. i know lasix was suggested as a possible reason for her lackluster performance.
now, when i read the other day that there was an 80% reduction in visible bleeding by horses in NY once the lasix ban was lifted....well, what else is there to say? do we really want an 80% increase in bleeders? we already have negative attention because of breakdowns, what will happen if horses start coming by the grandstand with blood coming out of their nostrils? or horses collapsing because of a bad enough hemorrage? and that does happen. i firmly believe that it's better to prevent something than to take a risk-that it's a lesser 'evil' if you will.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think the fallout had to do with the fact that a lot of bettors lost out on betting a horse who should have been scratched. i know lasix was suggested as a possible reason for her lackluster performance.
now, when i read the other day that there was an 80% reduction in visible bleeding by horses in NY once the lasix ban was lifted....well, what else is there to say? do we really want an 80% increase in bleeders? we already have negative attention because of breakdowns, what will happen if horses start coming by the grandstand with blood coming out of their nostrils? or horses collapsing because of a bad enough hemorrage? and that does happen. i firmly believe that it's better to prevent something than to take a risk-that it's a lesser 'evil' if you will.

You realize if two horse visibly bleed in a week, an "80% reduction" means that now 1.6 do, right? In any case, the is certainly NOT the equivalent of an 80% increase in bleeders.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think the fallout had to do with the fact that a lot of bettors lost out on betting a horse who should have been scratched. i know lasix was suggested as a possible reason for her lackluster performance.
now, when i read the other day that there was an 80% reduction in visible bleeding by horses in NY once the lasix ban was lifted....well, what else is there to say? do we really want an 80% increase in bleeders? we already have negative attention because of breakdowns, what will happen if horses start coming by the grandstand with blood coming out of their nostrils? or horses collapsing because of a bad enough hemorrage? and that does happen. i firmly believe that it's better to prevent something than to take a risk-that it's a lesser 'evil' if you will.

Your point is well taken, however, we should point out that the incidence of bleeding out the nose is reportedly between 1 and 2% of starters. And even then, that doesn't necessarily mean all episodes are visible to the public (ie some horses don't start bleeding until back at the barn).

I think the numbers you quoted were something in the range of 30+ vs. 70+ for comparable years at NYRA tracks.