Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by pointman

So this the solution? I would love to credit the author if I could find his or her name? Concerned about calcium stunting growth and maintainence then why not give the horse calcium supplements? Or is that performance enhancing too? And that is some source they have to to back up that argument.

If Austrailian horses are built much sturdier than U.S. horses, then why aren't these faster beasts loading the starting gate for the Derby or the Met Mile?

If you are an owner than why don't you answer Crist? How about backing up your arguments with actions, start all your horses without Lasix, prove us doubters wrong.

Perception? What do you think the public perception is going to be when horses are choking on their blood and bleeding on the racetrack?

If you had read my earlier posts up to this you would have seen that I weighed a negative against a positive regarding the argument that Lasix enhances performance. I have argued that using it is all good, I have just argued that ban is misguided and supported by misguided and speculative arguments without scientific evidence.

I thought that you were a pretty smart guy. I am afraid I may be mistaken.

With regard to your comment about Australian horses in the Derby, "sturdy" and "fast" are two totally different things. Our horses in the US are definitely fast. Nobody is denying that. Our horses are "fast" but they are also very fragile.

I would rather that my trainers did not use lasix. But as I said in my prior post, most trainers consider lasix to be part of their program. Most of them don't like to be told what to do. I put my foot down on certain things and others I don't. If the horse has never run before, I try to at least get the trainer to run the horse without lasix for at least their first lifetime race or two.

I agree with you that it will be bad PR when a horse comes back bleeding through the nose. We see that occasionally right now even with horses on lasix. If they ban lasix, I'm sure the incidence of this will increase somewhat.

I admit that I haven't read all your posts in this thread.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I would rather that my trainers did not use lasix.

Then buy a box of FLAIR nasal strips, and drop it off at the barn, and see if your trainer will still train for you using those. I'm serious - they have proven efficacy for EIPH. You can get them for $10-15 a strip (single use).

By the way: if we eliminate lasix, I imagine that many will go back to what they used to use before lasix - removing water from the horse for a day or two. That type of severe forced dehydration (which is unlike the diuresis induced by lasix for multiple reasons) is NOT a scenario I'd like to see.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Then buy a box of FLAIR nasal strips, and drop it off at the barn, and see if your trainer will still train for you using those. I'm serious - they have proven efficacy for EIPH. You can get them for $10-15 a strip (single use).

By the way: if we eliminate lasix, I imagine that many will go back to what they used to use before lasix - removing water from the horse for a day or two. That type of severe forced dehydration (which is unlike the diuresis induced by lasix for multiple reasons) is NOT a scenario I'd like to see.

In your opinion, how effective are the FLAIR nasal strips in comparison to lasix?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

In your opinion, how effective are the FLAIR nasal strips in comparison to lasix?

Go back about 3-4 pages, I think. There were multiple posts about the efficacy of FLAIR nasal strips, including Sightseek posting the link http://www.flairstrips.com/wp-conten...-Camp-2011.pdf to a wonderful FLAIR company brochure describing EIPH in an easy-to-understand manner, describing how FLAIR works, and listing all the efficacy data studies for their product.

Bottom line: FLAIR has the same measurable efficacy as lasix in decreasing the frequency and severity of EIPH episodes. That is why other maximally-exerting horse sports, who cannot use lasix, use the FLAIR strips universally at advanced and professional levels.

Many trainers don't care for them. Cannon? You ever try them?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Go back about 3-4 pages, I think. There were multiple posts about the efficacy of FLAIR nasal strips, including Sightseek (I believe) posting the link a wonderful FLAIR company brochure describing EIPH in an easy-to-understand manner, describing how FLAIR works, and listing all the efficacy data studies for their product.

Bottom line: FLAIR has the same measurable efficacy as lasix in decreasing the frequency and severity of EIPH episodes. That is why other maximally-exerting horse sports, who cannot use lasix, use the FLAIR strips universally at advanced and professional levels.

Many trainers don't care for them. Cannon? You ever try them?

For the trainers that don't care for them, what is their reason for not liking them?

I'm sure that plenty of trainers would rather use lasix because they think lasix is a performance-enhancer. I'm not just guessing that. I know for a fact that many trainers think lasix is a performance-enhancer because many have told me that.

I have another question for you. As we all know, some horses get small doses of lasix while other horses (usually known bleeders) get much bigger doses. Do you think there would be any downside to giving all horses a big dose of lasix?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm sure that plenty of trainers would rather use lasix because they think lasix is a performance-enhancer. I'm not just guessing that. I know for a fact that many trainers think lasix is a performance-enhancer because many have told me that.

Of course that is the reason, but nobody seems to want to admit it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course that is the reason, but nobody seems to want to admit it.

Admit what? That horses that are not bleeding into their lungs and suffocating themselves have more air and run better? Not really a secret It's all about the VO2Max rocking that immediate, glycolytic and oxidative energy pathways. He whose ATP lasts the longest, wins.

It's that simple :-)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

For the trainers that don't care for them, what is their reason for not liking them?

I'm sure that plenty of trainers would rather use lasix because they think lasix is a performance-enhancer. I'm not just guessing that. I know for a fact that many trainers think lasix is a performance-enhancer because many have told me that.

I have another question for you. As we all know, some horses get small doses of lasix while other horses (usually known bleeders) get much bigger doses. Do you think there would be any downside to giving all horses a big dose of lasix?

Wasting lasix.

The dose that must be given is within the published parameters of efficacy for the drug, usually (depending upon state) 150-200mg up to 500mg, and that legally allowed dose covers dosing a variety of horses by weight at 0.5 - 1.0 mg/kg, which is the lowest established efficacious dose for lasix (cardiac patients in fulminant pulmonary edema will get 4-6 mg/kg)

I don't know why some trainers don't like FLAIRS. Have to ask them.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Wasting lasix.

The dose that must be given is within the published parameters of efficacy for the drug, usually (depending upon state) 150-200mg up to 500mg, and that legally allowed dose covers dosing a variety of horses by weight at 0.5 - 1.0 mg/kg, which is the lowest established efficacious dose for lasix (cardiac patients in fulminant pulmonary edema will get 4-6 mg/kg)

I don't know why some trainers don't like FLAIRS. Have to ask them.

I think they use a 10 point scale in talking about how big a dose a horse is going to get. A bad bleeder would get a 10 point dose, meaning that the bigger dose you get, the less chance there is that you will bleed. If that is the case, why wouldn't trainers give all their horses a 10 point dose, if there was no downside?

There obviously is downside. The bigger dose you give them, the more dehydrated they get. In addition, if you give them the biggest dose allowable, it may make the horse too dull. Several trainers have told me that lasix can dull a horse. Do you agree with that?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Go back about 3-4 pages, I think. There were multiple posts about the efficacy of FLAIR nasal strips, including Sightseek posting the link http://www.flairstrips.com/wp-conten...-Camp-2011.pdf to a wonderful FLAIR company brochure describing EIPH in an easy-to-understand manner, describing how FLAIR works, and listing all the efficacy data studies for their product.

Bottom line: FLAIR has the same measurable efficacy as lasix in decreasing the frequency and severity of EIPH episodes. That is why other maximally-exerting horse sports, who cannot use lasix, use the FLAIR strips universally at advanced and professional levels.

Many trainers don't care for them. Cannon? You ever try them?

I use them on occasion but not enough to draw any conclusions. When it is hot out they dont stay on very well