Ray Paulick is nothing more than an ignorant pawn of the radical right.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know anything about Paulick or his site so I can't comment on that. But here is what I don't understand. With regard to this issue, I see the same thing that I see in politics. People have a need to vilify people with opposing views. There is no need to vilify people and assume they have some type of negative motives or intentions

I have listened to arguments on both sides of this issue. I think both sides make good arguments. This is not a case where you have only stupid and uneducated people on one side and smart people on the other side. There are plenty of smart and respected people on both sides. Both sides have good intentions.

I think if you had an unbiased jury listen to the testimony from experts on both sides of this issue, I think you would end up with a hung jury. I think there are credible, expert witnesses on both sides that make extremely compelling arguments in favor of and against the use of lasix.

Some of you guys act like this is some type of slam-dunk case where people would have to be out of their minds to disagree with you.

To the contrary I believe the anti-lasix/medication people have brought virtually no valid arguments to the table other than rhetoric and innuendo. In fact I believe if you brought this case to an unbiased jury that it would be great because the facts would be laid out and the myths and bs would be exposed.

What gets me is the tactics that the anti-lasix people use and lengths that they will go to in an attempt to discredit anyone who doesnt agree with them. For example Dr Northup is attacked because suppposedly he has a conflict of interest in seeing lasix use continue because of monetary gain for his practice. Of course anyone with a clue understands that vets will make far more money in a non-lasix situation. So the argument they make is not only insulting (that they dont believe his opinion couldnt be swayed by profits) but absolutely wrong. And yet they wont even admit that vets will do far better w/o raceday lasix. This is not soley my opinion it is the opinion of every vet that I have spoken to on the issue. Most hate giving lasix because it takes up a lot of time in the late morning that could be used doing other work. Not to mention they don't make much money giving $20 lasix shots.

As a PR move there is little to no evidence that a lasix ban will have any impact. if the steroids ban is used as an indicator there will be zero bounce from this move and it is likely that it will be largely ignored by the vaunted general public.

I haven't the faintest idea why 99% of the industry gives a damn about what other countries supposedly think of us? I honestly dont believe that most people in Europe care what we do over here and I dont know too many people here that really care what they do.

What other reasons are there? I think that is very ironic that Jack Van Berg is the poster child for non mendcation trainers when it was his horse Alysheba who was the breaking point for NY to adopt lasix. Wonder if his feelings would have been different if he trained the same horse now...

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

To the contrary I believe the anti-lasix/medication people have brought virtually no valid arguments to the table other than rhetoric and innuendo. In fact I believe if you brought this case to an unbiased jury that it would be great because the facts would be laid out and the myths and bs would be exposed.

What gets me is the tactics that the anti-lasix people use and lengths that they will go to in an attempt to discredit anyone who doesnt agree with them. For example Dr Northup is attacked because suppposedly he has a conflict of interest in seeing lasix use continue because of monetary gain for his practice. Of course anyone with a clue understands that vets will make far more money in a non-lasix situation. So the argument they make is not only insulting (that they dont believe his opinion couldnt be swayed by profits) but absolutely wrong. And yet they wont even admit that vets will do far better w/o raceday lasix. This is not soley my opinion it is the opinion of every vet that I have spoken to on the issue. Most hate giving lasix because it takes up a lot of time in the late morning that could be used doing other work. Not to mention they don't make much money giving $20 lasix shots.

As a PR move there is little to no evidence that a lasix ban will have any impact. if the steroids ban is used as an indicator there will be zero bounce from this move and it is likely that it will be largely ignored by the vaunted general public.

I haven't the faintest idea why 99% of the industry gives a damn about what other countries supposedly think of us? I honestly dont believe that most people in Europe care what we do over here and I dont know too many people here that really care what they do.

What other reasons are there? I think that is very ironic that Jack Van Berg is the poster child for non mendcation trainers when it was his horse Alysheba who was the breaking point for NY to adopt lasix. Wonder if his feelings would have been different if he trained the same horse now...

So what do you think the motives are of Jack Van Berg, Barry Irwin, Ray Paulick and people like that?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

So what do you think the motives are of Jack Van Berg, Barry Irwin, Ray Paulick and people like that?

I think they are "anti-drug", and I am, too - but they've fixated on lasix, which is ridiculous.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

So what do you think the motives are of Jack Van Berg, Barry Irwin, Ray Paulick and people like that?

Van Berg comes off as a bitter old man who blames his lack of success on the track on everything but his own failure to adapt to changing times. Irwin's goals are almost assuredly purely profit motivated and Paulick's insistence that vets are motivated by profits to back lasix shows a distinct lack of understanding of the issue. Like most things in this business (and a really distinct reason why it is in the situation it is in) is that people dont educate themselves, dont think critically about situations and are far too willing to believe something that fits the model of what they want it to be. We ignored/abused bettors till enough of them left that finally something had to be done to address the situation (though we have a long way to go in that area). We have ignored/abused owners till enough of them have left that the foal crop is at record low levels and tracks that give away ridiclous amounts of purse money have empty stalls and short fields. We have ignored the fate of horses until modern media has exposed the industry as having a woeful record in that regard.

Where have all these industry leaders been? The same people who are acting indignant about medication are the ones that have driven this ship to the brink of disaster. They complain about medication yet so many use trainers that use the vet the most and in some cases are serial violators. Do as I say, not as I do.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Van Berg comes off as a bitter old man who blames his lack of success on the track on everything but his own failure to adapt to changing times. Irwin's goals are almost assuredly purely profit motivated and Paulick's insistence that vets are motivated by profits to back lasix shows a distinct lack of understanding of the issue. Like most things in this business (and a really distinct reason why it is in the situation it is in) is that people dont educate themselves, dont think critically about situations and are far too willing to believe something that fits the model of what they want it to be. We ignored/abused bettors till enough of them left that finally something had to be done to address the situation (though we have a long way to go in that area). We have ignored/abused owners till enough of them have left that the foal crop is at record low levels and tracks that give away ridiclous amounts of purse money have empty stalls and short fields. We have ignored the fate of horses until modern media has exposed the industry as having a woeful record in that regard.

Where have all these industry leaders been? The same people who are acting indignant about medication are the ones that have driven this ship to the brink of disaster. They complain about medication yet so many use trainers that use the vet the most and in some cases are serial violators. Do as I say, not as I do.

many 's for the post, and especially for the bolded.


the industry wants to appear serious about stopping doping, about getting rid of performance enhancers-get rid of the guys who constantly get suspended! take their licenses away, for good.

dutrow, asmussen, mullins, biancone-serial offenders. the assman gets six months, while another jurisdiction considers that length or more for other positives. one owner subsequently gives him not one, but two future HOY's to train. another owner becomes his lawyer in appeals on other possible suspensions. it's a pathetic joke. lasix isn't the issue-it's many times over cheaters. it's turning a blind eye to real issues while attacking one that isn't. lasix isn't the issue. designer drugs , cheating trainers , cheating owners are all legitimate issues that they don't want to deal with. why?

[joeydb]

As a guy who leans right of center (on the politics/society board), I disagree with the assertion that right leaning means against lasix or vice versa.

I would think the opposite - that the trainers have good reasons for using medication like lasix or they wouldn't go through the time, trouble and expense.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by joeydb

As a guy who leans right of center (on the politics/society board), I disagree with the assertion that right leaning means against lasix or vice versa.

I would think the opposite - that the trainers have good reasons for using medication like lasix or they wouldn't go through the time, trouble and expense.

I laughed.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I laughed.

So did I.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

To the contrary I believe the anti-lasix/medication people have brought virtually no valid arguments to the table other than rhetoric and innuendo. In fact I believe if you brought this case to an unbiased jury that it would be great because the facts would be laid out and the myths and bs would be exposed.

What gets me is the tactics that the anti-lasix people use and lengths that they will go to in an attempt to discredit anyone who doesnt agree with them. For example Dr Northup is attacked because suppposedly he has a conflict of interest in seeing lasix use continue because of monetary gain for his practice. Of course anyone with a clue understands that vets will make far more money in a non-lasix situation. So the argument they make is not only insulting (that they dont believe his opinion couldnt be swayed by profits) but absolutely wrong. And yet they wont even admit that vets will do far better w/o raceday lasix. This is not soley my opinion it is the opinion of every vet that I have spoken to on the issue. Most hate giving lasix because it takes up a lot of time in the late morning that could be used doing other work. Not to mention they don't make much money giving $20 lasix shots.

As a PR move there is little to no evidence that a lasix ban will have any impact. if the steroids ban is used as an indicator there will be zero bounce from this move and it is likely that it will be largely ignored by the vaunted general public.

I haven't the faintest idea why 99% of the industry gives a damn about what other countries supposedly think of us? I honestly dont believe that most people in Europe care what we do over here and I dont know too many people here that really care what they do.

What other reasons are there? I think that is very ironic that Jack Van Berg is the poster child for non mendcation trainers when it was his horse Alysheba who was the breaking point for NY to adopt lasix. Wonder if his feelings would have been different if he trained the same horse now...

Well stated. And I certainly agree with your first sentence. Opinion has long been confused with fact as far as lasix is concerned.