Do any trainers not cheat?

[ELA]

I have been in the horse business for about 20 years. I own horses and just for the record so people don't start to throw stones (seems to be a lot of that going on around here, LOL), I have had and currently have a horse with Scott Lake. I am not a vet. Unless you are one, giving opinions on the medicinal aspects of these discussions is perhaps a waste of time because the opinion is not truly a qualified one.

Also, for the record, I do not think a trainer should be banned for life after a first, second or third clenbuterol. I have said that before I knew and had a horse with Scott Lake and I say the same thing after.

I don't want to get into the "who is cheating" and "who is not" routine. There is far too much hypocrisy there. If a horse is stepping foot onto the track for a race, and he/she is racing 100% on hay, grain and water -- unfortunately that horse is at a comepititive disadvantage. We may not like it but that is the truth.

I don't view clenbuterol as one of these designer or exotic drugs. It has its place on the backstretch. It is medicinal, when precribed and used in the right places -- at least I think it is or can be. However, its not allowed on race day or X amount of days out. Period. I think unifom medication rules are needed and with something like clenbuterol, there needs to be a graduated scale.

How about a first offense of a clenbuterol positive there should be a fine ($X). Second offense, days, and five times $X in fines. Third offense, major days and ten times the original fine. But there are problems here as well. There are gray areas here -- contamination, split samples not agreeing, etc. Sabotage, mistakes, etc. There are scale questions as well. The trainers responsibility rule applies. One trainer has 200 horses and has 2000 starts, another trainer has 4 horses and races 30 or 40 starts. I don't know what the answer is.

Eric

[The Bid]

Eric

Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes.

There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Eric

Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes.

There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record.

As a laymen, to a layperson's extent, I do understand about this -- "generally" -- and that is a key word here -- how a clenbuterol positive occurs. I agree with you and as such think that this may be people looking to kill a fly with a machine gun.

I am not trivializing this either. However, I think there is another problem here. Let's not name names here but I think when trainer X, Y, or Z -- and the trainer is one of these super-trainers, high % trainers, who is known for moving up horses, is the target of all the rumors and speculation, or one of the so called "drug trainers", etc. -- when one of these trainers comes up with a clenbuterol positive I think people look to hang them for it. Why? That's the dynamic of human nature.

Because they can't hang them for the "other thing" -- the "thing" that they haven't been caught at -- not yet at least. That is the "thing" that everyone thinks and knows in their heart they are guilty of. Well, personally, and this is JMVHO, I don't embrace that mindset. Now I am not defending these people -- hell, I have to race against them just like everyone else. But I just don't think you can convict a person, condemn them, ban them for life, etc. -- for something they haven't been caught doing. Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I do see that there.

It's kind of like Al Capone movie -- they could not catch or convict him of any of the real crimes that everyone knew he was gulity of. So what do they get him on -- tax evasion.

Eric

[kgar311]

Did anyone see Scott Lakes horses going down at Penn National at 2/5 last night in $2500 claimers. Bet against him for the next month. They werent even hitting the board.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

If you want this type of thing to stop make it a $10,000 fine the first time and double it each positive after that ($20k, $40k, $80k, $160k, $320k, etc...). Never suspend, just don't allow any horses from that trainer until his fines are paid. I would think this latest Lake positive would have cost him about $1M. He can pay it and race or quit. It would put the real accountability on the trainer.

The suspensions for X days don't mean anything to a trainer, because the top assistant takes over for the 30 days and enters in his name and nothing changes, but knowing the next Clen positive cost $1M or loss of trainers license will fix the problem.

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

If you want this type of thing to stop make it a $10,000 fine the first time and double it each positive after that ($20k, $40k, $80k, $160k, $320k, etc...). Never suspend, just don't allow any horses from that trainer until his fines are paid. I would think this latest Lake positive would have cost him about $1M. He can pay it and race or quit. It would put the real accountability on the trainer.

The suspensions for X days don't mean anything to a trainer, because the top assistant takes over for the 30 days and enters in his name and nothing changes, but knowing the next Clen positive cost $1M or loss of trainers license will fix the problem.

Better yet I think the first fine should be eleventy billion dollars and the trainer should be criminally charged with animal abuse and aiding and abetting terrorists because everyone knows the terrorists made him cheat.

[The Bid]

It is too easy to get a Clen positive to have fines like that. In most cases the Clen is an honest mistake. In a large barn it is very easy to get a horse lost in the shuffle and over medicate them, especially when its given by assistant trainers and grooms. Im not sure if you realize this, but usually clen is given by a trainers assistant, not a vet, not a vets assistant. They leave you the clen, and expect it to be handled properly. It would be impossible for X trainer to treat 250 horses with clen, that is where the mistakes come in, and that is where the overages manifest. Do you think a trainer should have a million dollar fine because of an honest mistake made by someone with a 5th grade education, making 300 dollars per week? I dont. I understand a Clen positive, I do not understand any caine positive, its not possible to make that mistake because they are Iv drugs.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

I own horses. I know mistakes happen. But let's be honest here, positives can be avoided. And if it cost the trainer more, than more attention would be paid to the medications given to horses. The real issue here in my mind is exactly stated at the top of the thread. Any horse who wins and tests positive stole money from the patrons/bettors.

This game is struggling enough to need slots in most states to keep it running. This is not the heyday of horseracing. The sport needs to do everything in its power to not alienate the fans. I think most of us take the ups and downs and grey areas of racing as the way it works. But the occasional patron/bettor may never bet again if a horse who beat him is positive. He/she would say it is fixed.

There is enough shady things that go on a a track (fixes, incorrectly reported workouts, running horses into shape, etc...) to not tackle one that can be easily monitored and avoided. If you are a trainer who is so sloppy as to not care about a huge fine, then pay it. Otherwise, pay more attention to the medications given to your horses or be out of the game. There is no shortage of owners or aspiring trainers.

[jpops757]

We all want bigger fields and horses to race longer and more often. Drugs is an important aspect of this, Each state names and limits the drugs. This is the problem. We all look for excuses for us loosing at the windows and cheating trainers and owners is one of them. I dont have the answer but the another problem is the "perforance inhancing" term we use. If the drug "inhances " the health of a horse this is the bottom line. We all say we are for whats best for the horse. How many of you have asthma? Wouldnt life be a "bitch " without your inhaler. Imaintain the drug polices should be concerned about the horses health . If it aids them in running then so be it. Maybee im to trusting but I think we lose sight of the game and worry too much about the gambling.