Do any trainers not cheat?

Originally Posted by Revolution

I don't own any horses. I couldn't even afford to feed them for one day.

Who is my buddy?

You didn't answer the question about Dutrow. Did he ever get caught cheating?

It amazes me how you call a pitcher with pinetar a cheater, and that is more acceptable in that sport, but when your buddy gets caught cheating it is ok, because they all do it.

You are so full of it is isn't even funny. You are about as two faced as they come.

Kiss kiss princess. I think that one was intentional. You don't put an overage of pine tar on by accident. But you aren't real bright about anything anyway.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Kiss kiss princess. I think that one was intentional. You don't put an overage of pine tar on by accident. But you aren't real bright about anything anyway.

You don't have positives by accident either. If you believe they do you are even dumber than I thought. Next you will tell me Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi didn't know what they are taking. You aren't that bright, but you can't use stupidity as an excuse for everything.

The trainers in horse racing all cheat. You know it too, but it is ok for them and not ok for baseball pitchers. Either you say it is part of the sport or you say they are all cheaters. You can't pick and choose, like you seem to do.

Originally Posted by Revolution

You don't have positives by accident either. If you believe they do you are even dumber than I thought. Next you will tell me Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi didn't know what they are taking. You aren't that bright, but you can't use stupidity as an excuse for everything.

The trainers in horse racing all cheat. You know it too, but it is ok for them and not ok for baseball pitchers. Either you say it is part of the sport or you say they are all cheaters. You can't pick and choose, like you seem to do.

They are not all cheaters, despite your ignorant views.
You heading over to Aqueduct today to talk with the head honchos and call them crooks? Lemme know how that works out for you.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by oracle80

They are not all cheaters, despite your ignorant views.
You heading over to Aqueduct today to talk with the head honchos and call them crooks? Lemme know how that works out for you.

Mr. Two Face, why can't you answer why it is ok for Dutrow to cheat but not Kenny Rogers. Dutrow was caught and suspended. Kenny Rogers cheated and wasn't even technically caught. But Rogers is a cheater and Dutrow just made a mistake. Hilarious. Either you are really stupid or you are two faced, and while you clearly aren't that bright, you aren't that stupid.

No--they all don't cheat, and cheating varies by degrees.

I just assume they all cheat.
That way, I will only be wrong about a few of them.

I hope the Arabs get busted big-time at CD.
Let's dq them from that big purse money!!

[The Bid]

PAIS

Im not including Clen in commonly used drugs to enhance equine performance. Winstrol, Trenbolone, Deca, Aflutop, Equipoise, Cancer Drugs, Lasix, those are all drugs we can use to improve performance. I think used in conjunction with these drugs, Clen can be useful. The thing Lake does that others dont is he never offs the clen. They are continually on a cycle, most trianers will go on for a while then remove the horse after hes over his lung infection. Lake continues use until he absolutely has to remove them, when you do that you open the window for a positive.

Then cheaper trainers will claim off Lake, not continue is training regimen, and ultimately the horse flops.

[ELA]

I have been in the horse business for about 20 years. I own horses and just for the record so people don't start to throw stones (seems to be a lot of that going on around here, LOL), I have had and currently have a horse with Scott Lake. I am not a vet. Unless you are one, giving opinions on the medicinal aspects of these discussions is perhaps a waste of time because the opinion is not truly a qualified one.

Also, for the record, I do not think a trainer should be banned for life after a first, second or third clenbuterol. I have said that before I knew and had a horse with Scott Lake and I say the same thing after.

I don't want to get into the "who is cheating" and "who is not" routine. There is far too much hypocrisy there. If a horse is stepping foot onto the track for a race, and he/she is racing 100% on hay, grain and water -- unfortunately that horse is at a comepititive disadvantage. We may not like it but that is the truth.

I don't view clenbuterol as one of these designer or exotic drugs. It has its place on the backstretch. It is medicinal, when precribed and used in the right places -- at least I think it is or can be. However, its not allowed on race day or X amount of days out. Period. I think unifom medication rules are needed and with something like clenbuterol, there needs to be a graduated scale.

How about a first offense of a clenbuterol positive there should be a fine ($X). Second offense, days, and five times $X in fines. Third offense, major days and ten times the original fine. But there are problems here as well. There are gray areas here -- contamination, split samples not agreeing, etc. Sabotage, mistakes, etc. There are scale questions as well. The trainers responsibility rule applies. One trainer has 200 horses and has 2000 starts, another trainer has 4 horses and races 30 or 40 starts. I don't know what the answer is.

Eric

[The Bid]

Eric

Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes.

There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Eric

Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes.

There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record.

As a laymen, to a layperson's extent, I do understand about this -- "generally" -- and that is a key word here -- how a clenbuterol positive occurs. I agree with you and as such think that this may be people looking to kill a fly with a machine gun.

I am not trivializing this either. However, I think there is another problem here. Let's not name names here but I think when trainer X, Y, or Z -- and the trainer is one of these super-trainers, high % trainers, who is known for moving up horses, is the target of all the rumors and speculation, or one of the so called "drug trainers", etc. -- when one of these trainers comes up with a clenbuterol positive I think people look to hang them for it. Why? That's the dynamic of human nature.

Because they can't hang them for the "other thing" -- the "thing" that they haven't been caught at -- not yet at least. That is the "thing" that everyone thinks and knows in their heart they are guilty of. Well, personally, and this is JMVHO, I don't embrace that mindset. Now I am not defending these people -- hell, I have to race against them just like everyone else. But I just don't think you can convict a person, condemn them, ban them for life, etc. -- for something they haven't been caught doing. Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I do see that there.

It's kind of like Al Capone movie -- they could not catch or convict him of any of the real crimes that everyone knew he was gulity of. So what do they get him on -- tax evasion.

Eric

[jpops757]

We all want bigger fields and horses to race longer and more often. Drugs is an important aspect of this, Each state names and limits the drugs. This is the problem. We all look for excuses for us loosing at the windows and cheating trainers and owners is one of them. I dont have the answer but the another problem is the "perforance inhancing" term we use. If the drug "inhances " the health of a horse this is the bottom line. We all say we are for whats best for the horse. How many of you have asthma? Wouldnt life be a "bitch " without your inhaler. Imaintain the drug polices should be concerned about the horses health . If it aids them in running then so be it. Maybee im to trusting but I think we lose sight of the game and worry too much about the gambling.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by The Bid

PAIS

Im not including Clen in commonly used drugs to enhance equine performance. Winstrol, Trenbolone, Deca, Aflutop, Equipoise, Cancer Drugs, Lasix, those are all drugs we can use to improve performance. I think used in conjunction with these drugs, Clen can be useful. The thing Lake does that others dont is he never offs the clen. They are continually on a cycle, most trianers will go on for a while then remove the horse after hes over his lung infection. Lake continues use until he absolutely has to remove them, when you do that you open the window for a positive.

Then cheaper trainers will claim off Lake, not continue is training regimen, and ultimately the horse flops.

Bid-- I was not directing my comment towards you ...or anyone actually...except perhaps the person who started the thread. I just wanted to point out for those that might not know that this drug --while outwardly appearing to make a difference in a horse will not actually improve it's performance.
Nor do I have any idea about the training methods of Scott Lake...
i agree with you that a horse will 'crash' when taken off this drug...much like humans do. I also believe that it is a wonderful product when used for its intended purpose...it allowed a 'heavy' old pony that i knew to live quite comfortably in his final years, and we gave it all the time to yearlings when they developed coughs or mucous after shipping to a sale.
As you said in your initial post there is no excuse for a clen overage. Either the horse is sick and doesn't run until it finishes the medication and subsequent withdrawl time. OR it isn't...and then the trainer has to deal with the consequence.

[The Bid]

I think its the trainers fault on any positive, especially when you give it yourself. However I do understand how a Clen positive comes about.

Horses do crash off of it.

My basic argument is the general incompetence of trainers and their help. Its sickening to see how some big outfits operate, ridiculous infact. Guys couldnt work at a burger stand yet they are dealing with millions of dollars in bloodstock. For sure there is no other place in the world where someone who speaks no english, and makes 12k a year handles millions of dollars in investments. Its insane.

[The Bid]

I had a trainer once tell me..."ah, this is the horse business, its a different kind of business" To that my answer was BULL****, business is business. There is no difference, the only difference is trainers (Employees) arent qualified to run a business.