Something wrong with Overdriven.. already

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Come on, horses break down at every class level. In some instances, they even break down during a routine gallop. "Speed" is not the only significant factor.

I didn't say it was. I was referring to mechanisms and physics of injury, and yes, the fast horses - especially young ones - are more prone to have injuries caused by their speed (which involves lever strength, bone maturity, etc) blowing through physiologic limitations (stress fracture origins, muscle tears, strain/sprain, etc).

Yes, all horses break down at all levels. There is a difference between cause the P2 fracture in the 5-year-old claimer at Penn and a catastrophic fractured sesamoid in a 2-year-old colt.

[Alan07]

Overdriven, winner of the Grade 3 Sanford, will not race again this year due to bone re-modeling, according to trainer Todd Pletcher.
http://www.drf.com/news/saratoga-overdriven-done-year

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Riot

I didn't say it was. I was referring to mechanisms and physics of injury, and yes, the fast horses - especially young ones - are more prone to have injuries caused by their speed (which involves lever strength, bone maturity, etc) blowing through physiologic limitations (stress fracture origins, muscle tears, strain/sprain, etc).

Yes, all horses break down at all levels. There is a difference between cause the P2 fracture in the 5-year-old claimer at Penn and a catastrophic fractured sesamoid in a 2-year-old colt.

Dr Riot why do you waste your time with Rollo, he wouldnt know a horse from donkey. He acts like he has actually touched a horse other then in a petting zoo?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Dr Riot why do you waste your time with Rollo, he wouldnt know a horse from donkey. He acts like he has actually touched a horse other then in a petting zoo?

If it wasn't for me, how else would we be audience to such a masterful display of back-pedaling? Any faster in reverse and something might have blown apart.

Physiologically, that is...

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If it wasn't for me, how else would we be audience to such a masterful display of back-pedaling? Any faster in reverse and something might have blown apart.

Physiologically, that is...

Excuse me? Your failure to be able to understand anything beyond the utterly simplistic, "all horses break down" isn't backpedaling on my part.

Here, for those other posters that would like to actually learn something about horses and the different types of injury they can get, and why "the good ones" so often seem to get injured:

I pointed out the well-known bone physiologic truth, " ... the fast horses - especially young ones - are more prone to have injuries caused by their speed (which involves lever strength, bone maturity, etc) blowing through physiologic limitations (stress fracture origins, muscle tears, strain/sprain, etc)."

Overdriven has exactly this type of "young, fast" horse injury: "Overdriven, winner of the Grade 3 Sanford, will not race again this year due to bone re-modeling, according to trainer Todd Pletcher. 'Basically, he has some changes to his cannon bones that were signs of immaturity,' Pletcher said. 'No fractures, no surgery necessary, we just decided we’d give him some time off and focus on Gulfstream.' "

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Excuse me? Your failure to be able to understand anything beyond the utterly simplistic, "all horses break down" isn't backpedaling on my part.

Interesting. I say that any horse at any class level and any level of training is at risk to be injured and that is "utterly simplistic". A broad generalization, for sure, but certainly not a simplification.

And yet saying "gotta run the fastest to blow it apart" is apparently some sort of dense, scientific treatise.

Touche.

Here, for those other posters that would like to actually learn something about horses and the different types of injury they can get, and why "the good ones" so often seem to get injured:

Oooh, great. Not only do we get the completely condescending preamble, but also hopefully a re-wording of your definitive mantra, put in layman's terms for us peons who can't wrap our heads around "gotta run the fastest to blow it apart".

So I guess we're in for a nice, verbose, boring lecture from some well-reputed and board-certified clinician who has all the answers to the issues and dilemmas that plague Thoroughbred trainers.

Let's all be silent and listen:

Overdriven has exactly this type of "young, fast" horse injury: "Overdriven, winner of the Grade 3 Sanford, will not race again this year due to bone re-modeling, according to trainer Todd Pletcher. 'Basically, he has some changes to his cannon bones that were signs of immaturity,' Pletcher said. 'No fractures, no surgery necessary, we just decided we’d give him some time off and focus on Gulfstream.' "

Wait. WTF? A quote from Todd Pletcher? He's the resource we need to consult to "learn" about the complex process (for some of us lesser folks, anyways) of racehorse injury?

Actually, you may be on to something there.

In fact, maybe you should have bolded the name "Todd Pletcher" instead of some of those other fancy buzzwords. That's probably a more important factor in predicting injury than anything that has to do with speed, bone density, and the like.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go download the Vet's List from all available racing jurisdictions. From what I've learned here, it's a better tool than the DRF or the Sheets for identifying the fastest horses.

Class dismissed!

[Riot]

Rollo, your brilliant treatise encompassing all that you know about equine orthopaedic medicine speaks for you:

RolloTomasi wrote:

Huh?

And for those that don't want to stay as dense as Rollo about why "the good fast ones" seem to break - it's because they do. They have to, indeed, run fast to blow apart; and fast horses have different types of injuries than slower horses.

Even if Rollo can't strain his brain enough to believe a basic concept every veterinarian learned second year of vet school is true, and he is more worried about peeing on trees than admitting he's clueless about a basic racehorse veterinary truism, let alone learn something about horses and injury.

For example, one of many on this subject:

Bone: Official Journal of the International Bone and Mineral Society Received 7 December 2005; received in revised form 9 May 2006; accepted 25 May 2006. published online 22 August 2006. Verhayen, Price, Lambden, Wood

Abstract

In order to gain insight into those training regimens that can minimise the risk of fracture in athletic populations, we conducted a large epidemiological study in racehorses. Thoroughbred racehorses provide a suitable model for studying fracture development and exercise-related risk factors in physically active populations. They represent a homogeneous population, undertaking intensive exercise programmes that are sufficiently heterogeneous to determine those factors that influence injury risk. Daily exercise information was recorded for a cohort of 1178 thoroughbreds that were monitored for up to 2 years. A total of 148 exercise-induced fractures occurred in the study population. Results from a nested case–control study showed a strong interactive effect of exercise distances at different speeds on fracture risk. Horses that exceeded 44 km at canter (≤14 m/s) and 6 km at gallop (>14 m/s) in a 30-day period were at particularly increased risk of fracture. These distances equate to ca. 7700 bone loading cycles at canter and 880 loading cycles at gallop. Fifty-six fractures occurred in the subset of study horses that were followed since entering training as yearlings, when skeletally immature (n=335). Cohort analysis of this data set showed that, in previously untrained bones, accumulation of canter exercise increased the risk of fracture (P≤0.01), whereas accumulation of high-speed gallop exercise had a protective effect (P<0.01). However, increasing distances at canter and gallop in short time periods (up to one month) were associated with an increasing fracture risk. All training exercise involves a balance between the risk of fracture inherent in exposure to loading and the beneficial effect that loading has by stimulating bone cells to produce a more robust architecture. Results from our study provide important epidemiological evidence of the effects of physical exercise on bone adaptation and injury risk and can be used to inform the design of safer exercise regimens in physically active populations.

But maybe you'd better check the liver, Rollo. Of course, if you want to discuss bone-loading cycles or Wolff's Law, or what type of horse gets a butterfly fracture of the cannon versus a spiral fracture, speak up and add your brilliant knowledge regarding how and why horses get injured to the list. We are awaiting your instruction. Oh, wait - for you, that consists only of listening to the popular trainer rumors on blog sites. Brilliant!

[RolloTomasi]

For example, one of many on this subject:

Hilarious. Did you even read this abstract before you cut and pasted it?

The study was conducted on the premise that the Thoroughbred population is homogenous (ie, all racehorses are equal). No acknowledgment of the silly "fast" horse versus "slow" horse cowboy logic you're trying to purport. According to the study, the specifics of the variable training regimens employed by horsemen influenced the likelihood of injury.

[Insert back-pedal here]