First Dude- Grade 1 winner

[King Glorious]

At the end of last season, I said that I thought First Dude had an excellent chance to be HOY this year. The horse that kept coming to my mind when I would watch him was Alysheba. Not that I thought the talent is comparable. It's not even close. It just reminded me of Alysheba before the Blue Grass, a horse with a lot of obvious talent that always had to be considered but that that I felt usually was his own worst enemy, could never quite figure it all out. Then it was like the lightg suddenly came on in the Blue Grass, even though he was dq'd, and he was a monster from that point on. He was 2-10 before the BG and 10-16 after. I felt like the light would come on with First Dude and with him having very little to beat, he'd turn those tough beats from last year into wins. I gave up after the Big Cap but Baffert has done a hell of a job with him and I'm glad to see him win one finally because I thought he was the best and most consistent of his class last year. With a win in the Pacific Classic, he puts himself right in the picture, if he isn't there already.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

At the end of last season, I said that I thought First Dude had an excellent chance to be HOY this year. The horse that kept coming to my mind when I would watch him was Alysheba. Not that I thought the talent is comparable. It's not even close. It just reminded me of Alysheba before the Blue Grass, a horse with a lot of obvious talent that always had to be considered but that that I felt usually was his own worst enemy, could never quite figure it all out. Then it was like the lightg suddenly came on in the Blue Grass, even though he was dq'd, and he was a monster from that point on. He was 2-10 before the BG and 10-16 after. I felt like the light would come on with First Dude and with him having very little to beat, he'd turn those tough beats from last year into wins. I gave up after the Big Cap but Baffert has done a hell of a job with him and I'm glad to see him win one finally because I thought he was the best and most consistent of his class last year. With a win in the Pacific Classic, he puts himself right in the picture, if he isn't there already.

I'm getting this for you for Xmas.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

At the end of last season, I said that I thought First Dude had an excellent chance to be HOY this year. The horse that kept coming to my mind when I would watch him was Alysheba. Not that I thought the talent is comparable. It's not even close. It just reminded me of Alysheba before the Blue Grass, a horse with a lot of obvious talent that always had to be considered but that that I felt usually was his own worst enemy, could never quite figure it all out. Then it was like the lightg suddenly came on in the Blue Grass, even though he was dq'd, and he was a monster from that point on. He was 2-10 before the BG and 10-16 after. I felt like the light would come on with First Dude and with him having very little to beat, he'd turn those tough beats from last year into wins. I gave up after the Big Cap but Baffert has done a hell of a job with him and I'm glad to see him win one finally because I thought he was the best and most consistent of his class last year. With a win in the Pacific Classic, he puts himself right in the picture, if he isn't there already.

Alysheba was diagnosed with an entrapped epiglottis after his second start as a 3yo. He had surgery in late March.

He finished first in his next 3 starts (Blue Grass, Derby, Preakness).

The light that came on was from the vet's endoscope.

[Dahoss]

The light has gone on this year with First Dude because he won the stake at Churchill by a nose over Regal Ransom and Equestrio (I think they are still running in the Foster) and because he was the last horse standing in the Hollywood Gold Cup, again, by a nose? Sorry, I can't agree.

I think he's been helped by facing far inferior horses this year as opposed to last year.

Last year he was getting outrun by Fly Down, Afleet Express, Morning Line, Lookin at Lucky, etc. He hasn't faced anyone like that this year.

[NTamm1215]

I have been a First Dude fan and it had mostly to do with him going through the rigors of a tough campaign and holding up really well (minus the BC Classic).

With all due respect to Dale Romans, Bob Baffert has done a very good job with First Dude. He has shed the "lumbering ox" type of running style which was used countless times to no avail. He clearly is comfortable sitting off the pace now, and even though he's very slow to get in stride, he's finishing unlike he did last year.

I thought the Hollywood Gold Cup was a very solid effort and didn't view the final quarter as the eyesore that many saw it.

As far as where First Dude stacks up, I don't agree with somebody like Mike Watchmaker, who rates him the top of the division, but he's obviously one of the 3-4 best.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

As far as where First Dude stacks up, I don't agree with somebody like Mike Watchmaker, who rates him the top of the division, but he's obviously one of the 3-4 best.

I like how Flat Out didn't even make his list. . .

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I like how Flat Out didn't even make his list. . .

That was my favorite part as well.

Then again, what has he done compared to Setsuko and Crown of Thorns?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

That was my favorite part as well.

Then again, what has he done compared to Setsuko and Crown of Thorns?

Crown of Thorns is hurt again.

Only a foot abscess at least.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I have been a First Dude fan and it had mostly to do with him going through the rigors of a tough campaign and holding up really well (minus the BC Classic).

With all due respect to Dale Romans, Bob Baffert has done a very good job with First Dude. He has shed the "lumbering ox" type of running style which was used countless times to no avail. He clearly is comfortable sitting off the pace now, and even though he's very slow to get in stride, he's finishing unlike he did last year.

I thought the Hollywood Gold Cup was a very solid effort and didn't view the final quarter as the eyesore that many saw it.

As far as where First Dude stacks up, I don't agree with somebody like Mike Watchmaker, who rates him the top of the division, but he's obviously one of the 3-4 best.

You know I respect your opinion Nick, but Game on Dude isn't much and Twirling Candy just isn't as effective at 10 furlongs as he is going shorter. No one else lifted a hood except for Setsuko, whose jockey acted like the race ended at the 1/4 pole.

I was a big First Dude fan last year as well and I'm glad he's avenged some of his narrow defeats last year. But I can't agree it was a very solid effort. I guess in terms of what is out there right now it was okay, but if he loses by a neck are people still acting like he ran some big race?

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You know I respect your opinion Nick, but Game on Dude isn't much and Twirling Candy just isn't as effective at 10 furlongs as he is going shorter. No one else lifted a hood except for Setsuko, whose jockey acted like the race ended at the 1/4 pole.

I was a big First Dude fan last year as well and I'm glad he's avenged some of his narrow defeats last year. But I can't agree it was a very solid effort. I guess in terms of what is out there right now it was okay, but if he loses by a neck are people still acting like he ran some big race?

He may not be that talented...I concede that...But he displays a lot of heart and determination. If you throw out the Lone Star race (he hated the track), you will notice that this horse continues to improve (Beyers, TG, etc) His grit is the attribute.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by asudevil

He may not be that talented...I concede that...But he displays a lot of heart and determination. If you throw out the Lone Star race (he hated the track), you will notice that this horse continues to improve (Beyers, TG, etc) His grit is the attribute.

Didn't Game On Dude win the Lone Star Derby last year?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

With all due respect to Dale Romans, Bob Baffert has done a very good job with First Dude. He has shed the "lumbering ox" type of running style which was used countless times to no avail. He clearly is comfortable sitting off the pace now, and even though he's very slow to get in stride, he's finishing unlike he did last year.

I have the impression that he's still a lumbering ox with no real turn of foot. Both his graded stakes wins were in blanket finishes (I think there was less than a length separating the 1st 6 home in the Churchill race).

Instead of the Pacific Classic, I'd love to see him in the Whitney. Nine furlongs and a solid pace should be enticing for his connections. Like last year's race, I think it would answer a lot of questions.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The light has gone on this year with First Dude because he won the stake at Churchill by a nose over Regal Ransom and Equestrio (I think they are still running in the Foster) and because he was the last horse standing in the Hollywood Gold Cup, again, by a nose? Sorry, I can't agree.

I think he's been helped by facing far inferior horses this year as opposed to last year.

Last year he was getting outrun by Fly Down, Afleet Express, Morning Line, Lookin at Lucky, etc. He hasn't faced anyone like that this year.

Last year, he was losing. This year, he is winning. You make it seem like Fly Down, Afleet Express, Lookin at Lucky, and Morning Line were some kind of murders row. They weren't. I don't think they were better than what he's facing now and if they were, they certainly weren't far superior. Last year, he was good enough to finish a head and neck behind Fly Down, a neck behind Morning Line, and 3/4 behind Lucky so I wouldn't say they were far superior to him. Looked to me like he was right with them, maybe a step back and if these horses now are right with him, why aren't they also right on level with the ones from last year? To me, if you are going to say the horses last year were good, you've got to say these are too. I personally think that both groups were/are average at best and that First Dude is no better now than he was then and that it's just been an adjustment in training that has changed him from loser to winner. Now he runs all the way through instead of waiting on them, which I thought he was doing last year.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Last year, he was losing. This year, he is winning. You make it seem like Fly Down, Afleet Express, Lookin at Lucky, and Morning Line were some kind of murders row. They weren't. I don't think they were better than what he's facing now and if they were, they certainly weren't far superior. Last year, he was good enough to finish a head and neck behind Fly Down, a neck behind Morning Line, and 3/4 behind Lucky so I wouldn't say they were far superior to him. Looked to me like he was right with them, maybe a step back and if these horses now are right with him, why aren't they also right on level with the ones from last year? To me, if you are going to say the horses last year were good, you've got to say these are too. I personally think that both groups were/are average at best and that First Dude is no better now than he was then and that it's just been an adjustment in training that has changed him from loser to winner. Now he runs all the way through instead of waiting on them, which I thought he was doing last year.

What about last year's Haskell, Travers, or BC Classic? Open length defeats. The only thing he was waiting on was a bus to take him home. He wasn't in the same zip code as Lookin At Lucky.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Last year, he was losing. This year, he is winning. You make it seem like Fly Down, Afleet Express, Lookin at Lucky, and Morning Line were some kind of murders row. They weren't. I don't think they were better than what he's facing now and if they were, they certainly weren't far superior. Last year, he was good enough to finish a head and neck behind Fly Down, a neck behind Morning Line, and 3/4 behind Lucky so I wouldn't say they were far superior to him. Looked to me like he was right with them, maybe a step back and if these horses now are right with him, why aren't they also right on level with the ones from last year? To me, if you are going to say the horses last year were good, you've got to say these are too. I personally think that both groups were/are average at best and that First Dude is no better now than he was then and that it's just been an adjustment in training that has changed him from loser to winner. Now he runs all the way through instead of waiting on them, which I thought he was doing last year.

So Lookin at Lucky isn't any better than Game on Dude or Regal Ransom? Fly Down isn't any better than Equestrio?

Two nose wins and he's shed the loser title and is now a winner. Awesome.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

So Lookin at Lucky isn't any better than Game on Dude or Regal Ransom? Fly Down isn't any better than Equestrio?

Two nose wins and he's shed the loser title and is now a winner. Awesome.

Lookin at Lucky was only able to beat him 3/4 of a length in the Preakness. Fly Down was well ahead of him in the Travers and BC Classic but in three other races, beat him less than 1/2 length. So is Fly Down really so much better than him? Morning Line beat him by a neck in Pennsylvania. If all of these horses were so much better than him, why was he able to be so competitive with them? The answer is because they weren't significantly better than him, if at all. He was at the very least right there with them. And if these horses now are right with him, doesn't that put them right with the group from last year?

Maybe I'm getting old but I'm having a hard time remember what where Lookin at Lucky's fast races that make him such a world beater? The point I was making wasn't that Fly Down wasn't better than Equestrio but that he wasn't really much better than First Dude. At least I never thought he was.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Lookin at Lucky was only able to beat him 3/4 of a length in the Preakness. Fly Down was well ahead of him in the Travers and BC Classic but in three other races, beat him less than 1/2 length. So is Fly Down really so much better than him? Morning Line beat him by a neck in Pennsylvania. If all of these horses were so much better than him, why was he able to be so competitive with them? The answer is because they weren't significantly better than him, if at all. He was at the very least right there with them. And if these horses now are right with him, doesn't that put them right with the group from last year?

Maybe I'm getting old but I'm having a hard time remember what where Lookin at Lucky's fast races that make him such a world beater? The point I was making wasn't that Fly Down wasn't better than Equestrio but that he wasn't really much better than First Dude. At least I never thought he was.

What are you talking about? Do you even know?

Who called Lookin at Lucky a world beater? He wasn't, but he certainly proved he was better than First Dude on the track (he beat him by 4 at Monmouth as well as the Preakness) and he was a lot better than anything First Dude has beaten (by a nose) this year.

You said the horses he's beating this year aren't any worse than what he faced last year. Those are your words, not mine.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Lookin at Lucky was only able to beat him 3/4 of a length in the Preakness. Fly Down was well ahead of him in the Travers and BC Classic but in three other races, beat him less than 1/2 length. So is Fly Down really so much better than him?

First Dude was close to Lookin At Lucky in the Preakness, but in two other races, was beaten by over 4 lengths. So is First Dude really so close to him?