My theory and feelings on Polytrack

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

God created horses and evolved their physiques and bio-mechanics over centuries of time to be tailored to perform in their natural environs in the wild – which are almost exclusively DIRT ranges and GRASS pastures and fields. They were NOT born to run over chopped-up rubber tires and synthetic fibers with wax-coated sand mixed in…….Oh how our sport will change because of this…oh how our sport will change……..

Cunningham I thought you knew something about the Natural History of horses. Oracle you too.
For at least the past 400 years humans have intestively bred horses to perform many functions. The draft horses, the pack animals etc... You and I on this board have taken a particular liking to those bred to run on tracks. Horses did not evolve naturally to run in ovals on the dirt. WE, human beings, have selectively bred these animals to perform their current functions. Certain behaviors such as social herd heirarchy and other behaviors are highly ingrained. But we, human beings, have drastically changed the physique and biomechanics of these animals thru selective breeding. The same can be done for polytrack. Why all the fuss right now Cunningham? Its not like selective breeding just started with thoroughbreds. As far as God creating the current form of animal we are looking at... oh boy, I'll stop there. Read the above. Look at what HUMANS have done thru selective breeding to Dogs, Corn, etc... the list is endless.

And I am withholding opinions on Polytrack until more data is in. And far as the complaints about the crud getting into the horses lungs and causing major problems, etc... thats laughable. Ask any vet who knows what they are doing and ask them how much dirt gets in horses lungs. When complaints are made about polytrac that are patently false, the people who put forth these claims make themselves look to be disingenious. And then when one cries wolf when the wolf is actually present, one is not taken seriously.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Actually, pgardn, the Thoroughbred originated from the Godolphin Arabian, the Byerley Turk, and the Darley Arabian. All Thoroughbreds (in fact all light or hot-blooded horses) today are descendants of Arabians, who have been bred through the ages to be desert animals. They ran on desert sand.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually, pgardn, the Thoroughbred originated from the Godolphin Arabian, the Byerley Turk, and the Darley Arabian. All Thoroughbreds, (in fact all light or hot-blooded horses) today are descendants of Arabians, who have been bred through the ages to be desert animals. They ran on desert sand.

Thank you Miss Roses, I know that. But the thoroughbred is not the only "breed" of horse. I think you understand what I am saying. SELECTIVE BREEDING to suit function. Not God's will. Look at the big draft animals. How many horses around before human beings were lugging around big sleds of lumber?

Its kinda like I am getting the feeling you are saying God made these animals for our pleasure to watch run in an oval around a dirt track. That is... well, to be nice, more than silly. I understand people do not like change. And the industry may be jumping on the stuff too fast for what some people who dont like change are used to. I can understand that.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Its kinda like I am getting the feeling you are saying God made these animals for our pleasure to watch run in an oval around a dirt track. That is... well, to be nice, more than silly. I understand people do not like change. And the industry may be jumping on the stuff too fast for what some people who dont like change are used to. I can understand that.

If this was directed towards me, that is not the case at all. You are assuming that I have ideas that I don't actually hold. You implied in your post that the first horses did not run on sand, and that just isn't true. I was just pointing out that the first hot-blooded horses were those that ran on desert sand, not on grass or polytrack. Sure, we've selectively bred Thoroughbreds for increased speed throughout the decades. But, that doesn't not change the fact that the first horses ran on sand. Also, the species of Equus caballus is a lot more than 400 years old.

I stand firm against polytrack because I believe that there are better ways to handle the issue of breakdowns in racehorses. All polytrack does is cover up the REAL problems of racing like breeding, drugs, and crooked training and management methods.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

If this was directed towards me, that is not the case at all. You are assuming that I have ideas that I don't actually hold. You implied in your post that the first horses did not run on sand, and that just isn't true. I was just pointing out that the first hot-blooded horses were those that ran on desert sand, not on grass or polytrack. Sure, we've selectively bred Thoroughbreds for increased speed throughout the decades. But, that doesn't not change the fact that the first horses ran on sand. Also, the species of Equus caballus is a lot more than 400 years old.

I stand firm against polytrack because I believe that there are better ways to handle the issue of breakdowns in racehorses. All polytrack does is cover up the REAL problems of racing like breeding, drugs, and crooked training and management methods.

No it was not. Cunninghams first post. Sorry.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Its kinda like I am getting the feeling you are saying God made these animals for our pleasure to watch run in an oval around a dirt track. That is... well, to be nice, more than silly. I understand people do not like change. And the industry may be jumping on the stuff too fast for what some people who dont like change are used to. I can understand that.

No, thats not what I'm saying, genius...follow along little Joey:

God gave frogs long tongues to catch their prey, he gave lizards a green/camillian (sp?) complextion to hide from its predators, he gave bears long claws to hunt in the wild and creeks for food, ETC. ETC. ETC..... could go on for days.....

In terms of MOBILITY, he gave fish fins to swim through their climate, which is water, HE GAVE HORSES THE HOOVES AND BIO-MECHANICS TO RUN OVER DIRT AND GRASS, PERIOD....

Understand now?

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

No, thats not what I'm saying, genius...follow along little Joey:

God gave frogs long tongues to catch their prey, he gave lizards a green/camillian (sp?) complextion to hide from its predators, he gave bears long claws to hunt in the wild and creeks for food, ETC. ETC. ETC..... could go on for days.....

In terms of MOBILITY, he gave fish fins to swim through their climate, which is water, HE GAVE HORSES THE HOOVES AND BIO-MECHANICS TO RUN OVER DIRT AND GRASS, PERIOD....

Understand now?

What's god got to do with any of this??

Originally Posted by pba1817

What's god got to do with any of this??

Do you believe he created you? Do you believe he created horses? If not, I understand....you don't apply to this conversation if you don't believe in your creator....It requires that basis to drive my arguement home....the 'Big Bang' theory doesn't work here....

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Do you believe he created you? Do you believe he created horses? If not, I understand....you don't apply to this conversation if you don't believe in your creator....It requires that basis to drive my arguement home....the 'Big Bang' theory doesn't work here....

Our beliefs about a creator are 100% irrelevant to the Polytrack situation... if this is your the way you need to go to justify your angle, then you probably should refrain from replying to any of my posts any longer....

Originally Posted by pba1817

Our beliefs about a creator are 100% irrelevant to the Polytrack situation... if this is your the way you need to go to justify your angle, then you probably should refrain from replying to any of my posts any longer....

Only scientologists would approve of a switch to polytrack. Heck if they had it their way the only people who could ride horses would be a minimum of a 7th level thetan.

Originally Posted by pba1817

Our beliefs about a creator are 100% irrelevant to the Polytrack situation... if this is your the way you need to go to justify your angle, then you probably should refrain from replying to any of my posts any longer....

Really, so lets get this straight then....God built fish to swim though rubber, he built birds to fly through rubber and he built horses to run through rubber, right?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Do you believe he created you? Do you believe he created horses? If not, I understand....you don't apply to this conversation if you don't believe in your creator....It requires that basis to drive my arguement home....the 'Big Bang' theory doesn't work here....

so if i don't believe in god i should like poly? or i shouldn't? not sure that it would matter one way or the other!!
after all, intelligent design would mean horses were created....sure doesn't look like eohippus out there to me!! where'd all the toes go?


lol just kidding a bit, i'm not trying to stir a darwin/evolution/creator/intelligent design discussion.


when you have tracks such as oaklawn and churchill, seems the others could have found a way to have a safe dirt track...or just go with turf, both all natural surfaces.

also, regarding breeding...if that bubble bursts a LOT of people are going to be out of business. a ton of them. you think coolmore and the sheik are bad for business now?? just wait til only the few are left, while the many are left wondering what the heck happened to their farms.


my 'you' above is directed to anyone who thinks that a few incredibly wealthy people are bad for the sport, not directed at cunningham....

Originally Posted by Danzig188

so if i don't believe in god i should like poly? or i shouldn't? not sure that it would matter one way or the other!!
after all, intelligent design would mean horses were created....sure doesn't look like eohippus out there to me!! where'd all the toes go?


lol just kidding a bit, i'm not trying to stir a darwin/evolution/creator/intelligent design discussion.


when you have tracks such as oaklawn and churchill, seems the others could have found a way to have a safe dirt track...or just go with turf, both all natural surfaces.

also, regarding breeding...if that bubble bursts a LOT of people are going to be out of business. a ton of them. you think coolmore and the sheik are bad for business now?? just wait til only the few are left, while the many are left wondering what the heck happened to their farms.

Zieg you are going to scare Patrick if you keep trying to use examples and facts that are outside his field of expertise.
Don't go using reasons like the possible financial disaster of the game to refute the religious reasons that horses should run on poly.

Originally Posted by pgardn

But we, human beings, have drastically changed the physique and biomechanics of these animals thru selective breeding. The same can be done for polytrack.

So, what if Storm Cats and A.P. Indys don't like it? Do we now stand them for $5K stud fee and weed then out of the Thoroughbred chain?

Why should we have to dillute and re-tool our breeding to tailor it to a new surface? It is going to screw up the legacy and classic bloodlines of our industrys greats - wrecking tradition after tradition and screwing with our history and heritage....

I strongly disagree with you....I don't want our breed to change - the same way as I don't want 5'5" 160-pound guys excelling in football if the NFL were to hypothetically change their surface of playing field from grass or artificial turf to playing on cotton pillows, would you?

Maybe Lemon Drops Kid will be the leading sire on that crap and Storm Cat will become an after-thought...do you really want that to happen?

I have never missed the Saratoga meet as much as I do now.

I have never looked forward to the Churchill fall meet as much as I have now, regardless of the Breeders Cup.

Hollywood Park? Whooo if you think it's bad at Keeneland right now just wait until opening day out there.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

I have never missed the Saratoga meet as much as I do now.

I have never looked forward to the Churchill fall meet as much as I have now, regardless of the Breeders Cup.

Hollywood Park? Whooo if you think it's bad at Keeneland right now just wait until opening day out there.

Dude, I'm with you 100%. I have sorely missed having Keeneland to follow wholeheartedly and play.
They can't open Churchill soon enough for me.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

So, what if Storm Cats and A.P. Indys don't like it? Do we now stand them for $5K stud fee and weed then out of the Thoroughbred chain?

Why should we have to dillute and re-tool our breeding to tailor it to a new surface? It is going to screw up the legacy and classic bloodlines of our industrys greats - wrecking tradition after tradition and screwing with our history and heritage....

I strongly disagree with you....I don't want our breed to change - the same way as I don't want 5'5" 160-pound guys excelling in football if the NFL were to hypothetically change their surface of playing field from grass or artificial turf to playing on cotton pillows, would you?

Maybe Lemon Drops Kid will be the leading sire on that crap and Storm Cat will become an after-thought...do you really want that to happen?

If anyone doesn't realize that this will have horrible impacts on the breeding industry, they are mistaken.
You crash the bloodstock market Pgard, and you will crash the whole game.
The reality is that the residual value is the only way you can win as an owner. You dilute the whole bloodstock market and crash the prices, you cansay goodbye to everyone but the Sheikhs and Coolmore. Noone else can afford to piss away money like that. Do you know how few yearlings purchased for over 100 grand ever earn themselves out BEFORE the additional expenses? Take away the hope on the back end, and you got nothing.

Originally Posted by oracle80

If anyone doesn't realize that this will have horrible impacts on the breeding industry, they are mistaken.
You crash the bloodstock market Pgard, and you will crash the whole game.
The reality is that the residual value is the only way you can win as an owner. You dilute the whole bloodstock market and crash the prices, you cansay goodbye to everyone but the Sheikhs and Coolmore. Noone else can afford to piss away money like that. Do you know how few yearlings purchased for over 100 grand ever earn themselves out BEFORE the additional expenses? Take away the hope on the back end, and you got nothing.

Im sorry but I cant forsee markets like you can. I am not MR. Wallstreet. Did dirt racing ruin turf racing?

Originally Posted by pgardn

Im sorry but I cant forsee markets like you can. I am not MR. Wallstreet. Did dirt racing ruin turf racing?

It wasn't a BUSINESS back then like it is now. If you don't realize that, there is no point in discussing it.