Champions Who Failed As Stallions

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Aaah. Finally, you defined what you term successful, aside from that male line thing. So you are talking about elite stallions, the top 0.5% of the breed. The Northern Dancers, Storm Cats and Mr. Prospectors. Most people define successful more leniently - since the breed average for SWs is just under 3%, the accepted figure for a good sire is 6% SWs, anything above is doing well.

I find AEI without the inclusion of a measure of the mares' quality can be deceiving. For instance, from a 2006 stallion register, Grindstone has an AEI of 1.53 but a CI (Comparable Index for his mares produce from other matings) of 1.90, while Indian Charlie has an AEI of 1.86 and a CI of 1.46. Indian Charlie's offspring from his mares are generally better than their other produce, while for Grindstone it is the other way around. Storm Cat's figures are identical - his AEI and CI are both 3.72; his mares' offspring from other matings are just as good as their Storm Cats. This to me is eye-opening.

I provided three separate measures for evaluating a stallion's success ... sire of runners, sire of sires, and broodmare sire.

I provided the names of 65 stallions who failed to meet these criteria ... and you haven't provided a single piece of data on ANY of them ... not ONE

[Linny]

So if a stallion doesn't do ALL those things, he's failed? As PA mentioned, you seem to be expecting the other 99.5% of the breed to either live up to the elite stallions level or be subject to ridicule.
By your standard for success, only about .5% of the stallions out there should be allowed to breed. After all, why breed to a "failure?"

Many stallions who have lead sire lists have not established a male line, nor become star broodmare sires. Many great broodmare sires have not established a male line, Princequillo comes to mind. A precious few stallions ever establish their own "line."

Having spoken with some pretty high end breeders about stallions I can say BB that you have some extremely high standards. Higher than many who have actually been breeding champions for decades.

Originally Posted by Linny

So if a stallion doesn't do ALL those things, he's failed? As PA mentioned, you seem to be expecting the other 99.5% of the breed to either live up to the elite stallions level or be subject to ridicule.
By your standard for success, only about .5% of the stallions out there should be allowed to breed. After all, why breed to a "failure?"

Many stallions who have lead sire lists have not established a male line, nor become star broodmare sires. Many great broodmare sires have not established a male line, Princequillo comes to mind. A precious few stallions ever establish their own "line."

Having spoken with some pretty high end breeders about stallions I can say BB that you have some extremely high standards. Higher than many who have actually been breeding champions for decades.

I've never said that a stallion must do ALL of those things.

For example ... Secretariat was NOT a failure as a stallion. As a sire of runners ... his Lifetime AEI was just a shade below 3.00 (successful) and his %SW was about 7% (reasonably successful). As a broodmare sire ... he had much greater success ... as his daughters produced many top runners and ... even more important ... several very successful stallions. As a sire of sires ... he was a complete disaster ... all of his sons were monumentally unsuccessful as stallions.

So ... on balance ... Secretariat was successful ... (very good sire of runners ... very, very good broodmare sire ... disastrous sire of sires) ... even though he didn't do well in every category.

I hope that addresses your concerns.

Let's take a look at the other end of the spectrum ... a stallion who was a total disaster ...

... sorrowfully ... that was Coaltown.

He did not sire a single stakes winner ... not a one ... and needless to say ... none of his sons was a successful stallion ... and none of his daughters was a successful broodmare ...

... despite the fact that he was a brilliant runner, very well bred, beautifully conformed ... and given every opportunity to succeed.

That ... of course ... was the very gist of this thread. I was pointing out to our young and unknowing colleague ... that there are no guarantees of success as a stallion ... regardless of the surface qualifications of the stallion prospect.