Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think his inability to get the horse to quit being rank certainly didn't help matters any.
Like I said, I think Holthus happens to be a great trainer, every year he develops something very nicely, and he doesnt get all bluebloods.
But you really can't blame a guy who spent a lotta dough on a horse for trying a change.
I think there is a perspective problem here, and allow me to point out that Holthus made the former owner a fortune and won a lotta races, but for the new guy, hes made 3 starts, and had one win, in the illustrious St Louis Derby.
What he did with the horse before Stonewall bought him really doesn't matter to them.
I think if he wins his last race, they never make the switch, never. But he lost with the rankness again, and if I had kicked up that kind of dough for a horse, I can see where I might be a tad upset when he blows a big purse by being rank again. Its not irrational to make a move they feel is in their best interests. And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

That may not have been an option for the owners. Holthus could have refused to replace McKee.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

How can you expect a jockey to change a horses demeaner in the 14 minutes he is on him for the race, its not like he goes by and gallops the horse everyday and works with him. I agree with Oracles assesment of the situation, very much the same as comparing the Rock Hard Ten change, some trainers are more capable of getting thru to the horse than others and for this owner he had a right to try something diffirent.

Originally Posted by Honu

How can you expect a jockey to change a horses demeaner in the 14 minutes he is on him for the race, its not like he goes by and gallops the horse everyday and works with him. I agree with Oracles assesment of the situation, very much the same as comparing the Rock Hard Ten change, some trainers are more capable of getting thru to the horse than others and for this owner he had a right to try something diffirent.

Honu,
First of all congrats on another job well done. Perhaps if people realized that its the work of exercise riders like yourself, who follow instructions from the trainer in regards to the morning programs, that they would know that a jockey can't just make a rank horse relax.
Jockeys weigh about 115 pounds, horses weigh at least 1000 pounds. Doesn't matter what the jocks skill level is if the horse is rank, the horse is always gonna win.
Its the trainer and his crew whose work in the mornings give you the product in the afternoons. I just can't blame McKee.
It was indeed time for a change. And I still don't think this was anything personal.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Honu,
First of all congrats on another job well done. Perhaps if people realized that its the work of exercise riders like yourself, who follow instructions from the trainer in regards to the morning programs, that they would know that a jockey can't just make a rank horse relax.
Jockeys weigh about 115 pounds, horses weigh at least 1000 pounds. Doesn't matter what the jocks skill level is if the horse is rank, the horse is always gonna win.
Its the trainer and his crew whose work in the mornings give you the product in the afternoons. I just can't blame McKee.
It was indeed time for a change. And I still don't think this was anything personal.

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

You don't get it. Its not just the works, its the gallops and two minute licks, etc.
Jocks just don't do that, they don't gallop every morning and furthermore its the trainers call as to what the horse will do. Its not just how its done, its whats done.
People are creatures of habit, they tend to use the same methods over and over again. In Holthus's case his methods are certainly top notch because each and every year he has very good horses who run very well, the guys obviously a very good trainer, I don't think thats even remotely debatable.
But not every trainer fits every horse, just like not every coach fits every team in football. Tom Coughling of the Giants is obviously a very good coach if you take a look at what hes accomplished in his career. But the Giants and he have never developed a good rapport and hes trying to force them to play a style that doesn't fit the strengths and weaknesses that the Giants have. he also refuses to change his methods. Hes a good coach, but now priven to be the wrong coach for those particular guys.
It can work like that with trainers as well, even with the best trainers. Their methods don't always work the best with every horse. The horse is rank and after that many starts its become obvious that Holthus couldn't overcome that. So, the next guy gets a chance to. Perhaps Pletcher will fail to take that edge off him as well and he will continue to run off with the jock, but I would say that an attempt had to be made.
Noone anywhere is gonna say that Holthus isnt a very good and respected trainer, because thats exactly what he is.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You don't get it. Its not just the works, its the gallops and two minute licks, etc.
Jocks just don't do that, they don't gallop every morning and furthermore its the trainers call as to what the horse will do. Its not just how its done, its whats done.
People are creatures of habit, they tend to use the same methods over and over again. In Holthus's case his methods are certainly top notch because each and every year he has very good horses who run very well, the guys obviously a very good trainer, I don't think thats even remotely debatable.
But not every trainer fits every horse, just like not every coach fits every team in football. Tom Coughling of the Giants is obviously a very good coach if you take a look at what hes accomplished in his career. But the Giants and he have never developed a good rapport and hes trying to force them to play a style that doesn't fit the strengths and weaknesses that the Giants have. he also refuses to change his methods. Hes a good coach, but now priven to be the wrong coach for those particular guys.
It can work like that with trainers as well, even with the best trainers. Their methods don't always work the best with every horse. The horse is rank and after that many starts its become obvious that Holthus couldn't overcome that. So, the next guy gets a chance to. Perhaps Pletcher will fail to take that edge off him as well and he will continue to run off with the jock, but I would say that an attempt had to be made.
Noone anywhere is gonna say that Holthus isnt a very good and respected trainer, because thats exactly what he is.

then why was he transferred, the horse would of won if Leparoux or Russell Baze were up

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

then why was he transferred, the horse would of won if Leparoux or Russell Baze were up

He was transferred because the elitist ******* new owners overpaid and want to recoup some of their cash while he's still running. Unfortunately for them LR isn't going to make much $$$ with Pletcher if they insist on running him with the best.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

McKee has worked the horse a hundred times. The horse gallops strong, works strong. John McKee is small even by Jockey standards. For everyone out there that thinks that it is easy to get a horse to relax in the mornings I certainly welcome your ideas. BTW I don't recall any problem horses that Pletcher has guided back to normalcy. Is he a horse whisperer too?

Funny thing about Pletchers assistants that are always being praised here is that at least 2 of them are failed trainers. Now they are geniuses too? It is all about the horses and he has more good horses under one shedrow than anyone in the history of American racing.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

McKee has worked the horse a hundred times. The horse gallops strong, works strong. John McKee is small even by Jockey standards. For everyone out there that thinks that it is easy to get a horse to relax in the mornings I certainly welcome your ideas. BTW I don't recall any problem horses that Pletcher has guided back to normalcy. Is he a horse whisperer too?

Funny thing about Pletchers assistants that are always being praised here is that at least 2 of them are failed trainers. Now they are geniuses too? It is all about the horses and he has more good horses under one shedrow than anyone in the history of American racing.

I figured he had but Oracle was making it out that McKee only rode the horse on raceday so isn't responsible for what goes on in the morning which is what my post was based on.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I figured he had but Oracle was making it out that McKee only rode the horse on raceday so isn't responsible for what goes on in the morning which is what my post was based on.

Actually McKee was not the gretest choice of jockey for this horse but thats a moot point. Holthus rides him first call and is loyal to a fault. McKEE did work with the horse which obviously has not helped in relation to his being rank.
As for Holthus getting paid a lot of money on the commission he should be getting paid. The man has had the horse since he was brought out of a field and was very successful in racing him. Successful enough to get some dummies to pay 6 mill for him. But the truth of it is that Bob is getting up there in age and really doesn't care that much about the money. It's hard for a guy who made this horse from the ground floor to lose him in the manner that he did. I mean if you work at something for 50 years and finally got the best horse that you ever had, won a ton of races with him and to lost him to a corporate outfit where he will be stall number #17, how would you feel. Probably as bad as Holthus does.
I should point out that Bob is a friend and therefore I am a bit biased however I should point out the classy manner in which he has handled the whole affair.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I figured he had but Oracle was making it out that McKee only rode the horse on raceday so isn't responsible for what goes on in the morning which is what my post was based on.

Having a jockey come and work a horse out in the morning is way diffirent than putting a 150 lb. gallop boy on him with a set of draw reins. Jockeys get paid to push not pull there is a very big diffirence, with a horse that is as rank as he seemed to be last out , I dont think there is much John McKee is going to do about it by working him once a week.
The foundation is layed in the mornings with the trainer and the gallop rider teaching the horse to relax , I have no idea what kind of training regimine the horse has had but from over 20 years of riding horses and the last 8 being for a Hall Of Fame trainer , I can tell you that the jockey isnt going to be the one getting the horse to relax by working him once a week, it would be the trainer and the gallop boy or girls job to do that.