Thoughts On NBA at midseason

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Instead of being argumentative, try to understand the points presented and address them. Its not like there wouldnt be plenty of talent. My point is that they wouldnt go well together (chemistry!). You have four guys, none of them shoots 3's or distributes the ball and all of them are use to getting 15-20 shots. How does that work unless you have guys that will significantly change their respective game.

In miami, you don't have much money promised out and you can find players that would compliment wade and bosh. Beasley has been playing well lately but you get a nice return in a trade for him if you dont feel like he works. Either way, you have a blank slate with two studs and a bunch of money to fill in the blanks.

Argumentative? it is hard to understand your logic. Like Derrick Rose wouldn't alter his game if he had Dwayne Wade in the backcourt with him? That Wade wouldnt want to play with a top 5 (and getting better) PG? That there would be a chemistry problem with the players ? Salmons can certainly shoot the three as evidenced by his 41% last year and Deng doesnt take a lot of them but is also over 40% this year, they would have two of the NBA's best rebounders (Noah and Bosh) as well.

A blank slate doesnt means that you can get the right pieces around them. Currently Miami has a slightly below average PG and an enigma signed through next year. The idea that they can fill out the roster with players that would be of the quality of Chicagos with the limited money they would have is a longshot. And that is if you believe you can be a championship calibur team with Mario Chalmers at the point and Micheal Beasley playing 35 minutes at whatever position that it is that he plays.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Argumentative? it is hard to understand your logic. Like Derrick Rose wouldn't alter his game if he had Dwayne Wade in the backcourt with him? That Wade wouldnt want to play with a top 5 (and getting better) PG? That there would be a chemistry problem with the players ? Salmons can certainly shoot the three as evidenced by his 41% last year and Deng doesnt take a lot of them but is also over 40% this year, they would have two of the NBA's best rebounders (Noah and Bosh) as well.

A blank slate doesnt means that you can get the right pieces around them. Currently Miami has a slightly below average PG and an enigma signed through next year. The idea that they can fill out the roster with players that would be of the quality of Chicagos with the limited money they would have is a longshot. And that is if you believe you can be a championship calibur team with Mario Chalmers at the point and Micheal Beasley playing 35 minutes at whatever position that it is that he plays.

First of all, I still have to understand how should Chicago could get it done and New York can't capwise unless some serious trades are made. I posted the links earlier.

If you still don't understand how there would be chemistry issues, anyway, i dont know what to tell you. You have 5 guys, none of them shoot threes or passes and 4 of them are use to 15-20 shots a game. You bring up salmons but you play 5 guys at a time in the NBA. So how can that work? It doesnt...except in rotisserie leagues but it doesnt even work there because you would get killed in a couple of categories.

Now, if your claim is that maybe they get a couple of the players you named to create cap space (perhaps deng or even rose) and find lesser paid parts that actually fit on the court, i can buy that. But a starting lineup of deng, rose, wade, bosh and noah doesnt work on many levels. Yes, four very talented players but talented players don't always play well together.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

First of all, I still have to understand how should Chicago could get it done and New York can't capwise unless some serious trades are made. I posted the links earlier.

If you still don't understand how there would be chemistry issues, anyway, i dont know what to tell you. You have 5 guys, none of them shoot threes or passes and 4 of them are use to 15-20 shots a game. You bring up salmons but you play 5 guys at a time in the NBA. So how can that work? It doesnt...except in rotisserie leagues but it doesnt even work there because you would get killed in a couple of categories.

Now, if your claim is that maybe they get a couple of the players you named to create cap space (perhaps deng or even rose) and find lesser paid parts that actually fit on the court, i can buy that. But a starting lineup of deng, rose, wade, bosh and noah doesnt work on many levels. Yes, four very talented players but talented players don't always play well together.

PG - Rose (Hard to believe you can find a major fault here)
SG - Wade (could pace himself with other weapons unlike now where he is basically asked to carry the entire load)
SF - Deng (He probably isnt worth his contract but is a good mid range scorer who would benefit greatly from playing with Wade and Bosh. Pretty good defender and rebounder with length)
PF - Noah (Relentless rebounder and good low post defender who stepped up his game this year before getting hurt. Does not need offensive touches)
C- Bosh (24-10 guy, very good defender in prime of his career)
6th mn - Salomns - (Offensive minded player who could spell Wade and Deng. Good 3 pt shooter)
7th man - Taj Gibson - (Good rookie season so far, brings energy and rebounding, has tons of upside)

It looks like the puzzle pieces fit pretty well. Each player is suited to their role. I have no idea how you dont see these players fitting together. It is a longshot to happen as they would still have to get rid of Thomas and Hinrich without taking on money and may even need Wade to take a little less than max money to fill up the cupboard. I will give you that all the dominos falling to make this happen is far from a certainty. But that team would be a serious contender.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

PG - Rose (Hard to believe you can find a major fault here)
SG - Wade (could pace himself with other weapons unlike now where he is basically asked to carry the entire load)
SF - Deng (He probably isnt worth his contract but is a good mid range scorer who would benefit greatly from playing with Wade and Bosh. Pretty good defender and rebounder with length)
PF - Noah (Relentless rebounder and good low post defender who stepped up his game this year before getting hurt. Does not need offensive touches)
C- Bosh (24-10 guy, very good defender in prime of his career)
6th mn - Salomns - (Offensive minded player who could spell Wade and Deng. Good 3 pt shooter)
7th man - Taj Gibson - (Good rookie season so far, brings energy and rebounding, has tons of upside)

It looks like the puzzle pieces fit pretty well. Each player is suited to their role. I have no idea how you dont see these players fitting together. It is a longshot to happen as they would still have to get rid of Thomas and Hinrich without taking on money and may even need Wade to take a little less than max money to fill up the cupboard. I will give you that all the dominos falling to make this happen is far from a certainty. But that team would be a serious contender.

NONE OF THE STARTERS SHOOTS 3's or PASSES! That doesnt work. Rose is a shoot first PG that now isnt going to have the pumpkin most of the time and has to find shots for other players. Defenses can collapse the lane because there is no one to keep them honest with range. Teams just arent built like this. There is no question that all of those guys are talented but that team isnt contending for a title. Lebron is going to get someone. That team that you have assembled isnt going to beat lebron+ (joe johnson?) and whoever else they have. It isnt beating the lakers.

Moving the 3 pt line changed the game and teams that can't consistently knock them down don't win. Period. Teams that don't pass, don't win. Period. I think you are just being stubborn because obviously you know this stuff.

Its a moot point regardless.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

NONE OF THE STARTERS SHOOTS 3's or PASSES! That doesnt work. Rose is a shoot first PG that now isnt going to have the pumpkin most of the time and has to find shots for other players. Defenses can collapse the lane because there is no one to keep them honest with range. Teams just arent built like this. There is no question that all of those guys are talented but that team isnt contending for a title. Lebron is going to get someone. That team that you have assembled isnt going to beat lebron+ (joe johnson?) and whoever else they have. It isnt beating the lakers.

Moving the 3 pt line changed the game and teams that can't consistently knock them down don't win. Period. Teams that don't pass, don't win. Period. I think you are just being stubborn because obviously you know this stuff.

Its a moot point regardless.

Fine, Who is the Lakers big 3 point shooter? Their starters avg hitting just over 3 a game. Kobe? hits just over 1 a game. Artest? same with him. That is the key to thier offense? Yeah ok.

None of the starters pass? That is ridiclous. Just stupid. Like it is a collecion of 5 gunners. Noah rarely shoots, Bosh needs to be fed, he doesnt create his own shot, Deng and Rose would certainly defer to Wade. Your premise that this isnt how teams are built is close to insane. The NBA is a matchup league and that lineup would provide a lot of match up problems. You think adding a three point shooter wouldnt be hard? You dont think open shots would be created with that team on the floor? You must have be brainwashed by watching too many Wizards games...

I havent seen a team collapse a defense in the NBA ever. Do you even watch the games?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Fine, Who is the Lakers big 3 point shooter? Their starters avg hitting just over 3 a game. Kobe? hits just over 1 a game. Artest? same with him. That is the key to thier offense? Yeah ok.

The Lakers are top 10 in the league in three pointers made and attempted. Every PG they use (fisher, farmar, vucacic) shoots over 35%. Artest is shooting 38%. Kobe 32%. They, as a team, have taken 1028 3 pt shots and made 358.

Kobe is 70-214. Artest is 75-190. Fisher (plays 27 mins) 48-137. Compare that to:

Wade is 54-182. Deng is 23-56. Rose is 5-22. I would imagine your math is as good as your poli/sci so I will tell you that Wade/Rose shoot below 30% from the 3 pt line.

In the NBA, you can't have two guys in your backcourt that can't shoot 30% from 3 pt range and win championships. But then again, Im sure you knew that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The Lakers are top 10 in the league in three pointers made and attempted. Every PG they use (fisher, farmar, vucacic) shoots over 35%. Artest is shooting 38%. Kobe 32%. They, as a team, have taken 1028 3 pt shots and made 358.

Kobe is 70-214. Artest is 75-190. Fisher (plays 27 mins) 48-137. Compare that to:

Wade is 54-182. Deng is 23-56. Rose is 5-22. I would imagine your math is as good as your poli/sci so I will tell you that Wade/Rose shoot below 30% from the 3 pt line.

In the NBA, you can't have two guys in your backcourt that can't shoot 30% from 3 pt range and win championships. But then again, Im sure you knew that.

They are 15th in the league in 3 point %. They are 9th in 3 pt FG's behind the Knicks, Pacers, Bucks, Hornets, Rockets. You naturally include the entire lakers roster and dont talk about Salmons who has made more 3 pointers this season than Artest or point out that Deng is shooting 41% and would surely find himself open for more looks when surrounded by offensive players like Wade, Rose and a low post threat of Bosh. You also act as though there wont be a ton of cheap, one dimensional shooters available for them to grab.

You know why the lakers shoot so many 3's? Because they have a terrific lineup that creates matchup problems leaving those other guys wide open. Ignoring that the lineup presented in the theoritical conversation wouldnt create a lot of wide open shots for the lesser lights simply doesnt fit into your argument.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

NONE OF THE STARTERS SHOOTS 3's or PASSES! That doesnt work. Rose is a shoot first PG that now isnt going to have the pumpkin most of the time and has to find shots for other players. Defenses can collapse the lane because there is no one to keep them honest with range. Teams just arent built like this. There is no question that all of those guys are talented but that team isnt contending for a title. Lebron is going to get someone. That team that you have assembled isnt going to beat lebron+ (joe johnson?) and whoever else they have. It isnt beating the lakers.

Moving the 3 pt line changed the game and teams that can't consistently knock them down don't win. Period. Teams that don't pass, don't win. Period. I think you are just being stubborn because obviously you know this stuff.

Its a moot point regardless.

Have you watched Rose play? You are nuts saying he is shoot first PG. He has been forced into that role because we have no one that can make a shot. Matter of fact, he was TOLD to shoot because of how bad they were playing. They are now playing much better and things have opened up for everyone.

If they got just one of the two you guys are talking about, they are a top 3 team next year in the eastern conference, but if they got both, they would chew up teams, just based on their toughness.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

Have you watched Rose play? You are nuts saying he is shoot first PG. He has been forced into that role because we have no one that can make a shot. Matter of fact, he was TOLD to shoot because of how bad they were playing. They are now playing much better and things have opened up for everyone.

If they got just one of the two you guys are talking about, they are a top 3 team next year in the eastern conference, but if they got both, they would chew up teams, just based on their toughness.

I knew if i talked about the Bulls long enough I could lure Mr. Chicago into the conversation.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I knew if i talked about the Bulls long enough I could lure Mr. Chicago into the conversation.

Your nuts thinking they are getting both those guys. While the Bulls management has a flair for the dramatic (think Baby Bulls Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler), they will never pull that off.

If Thomas would just buy into the philosophy like Joakim has done, he would be fine. I will sometimes just watch the Bulls to see what comedy stuff Thomas will do while on the court. He needs to be re-broke.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

Have you watched Rose play? You are nuts saying he is shoot first PG. He has been forced into that role because we have no one that can make a shot. Matter of fact, he was TOLD to shoot because of how bad they were playing. They are now playing much better and things have opened up for everyone.

If they got just one of the two you guys are talking about, they are a top 3 team next year in the eastern conference, but if they got both, they would chew up teams, just based on their toughness.

Guess which point guard leads the league in field goal attempts? Wait for it...


Derrick Rose. 894 attempts and he is the only PG in the top ten in fg attempts. By the way, he has more attempts than CHRIS BOSh. LOL

He is 14th in assists. If that isnt a shoot first pg, i dont know what is. As a matter of fact, that is the definition.

[dalakhani]

Even more interesting stat.

Wade, Rose and Bosh are all in the TOP TEN IN LEAGUE IN FG ATTEMPTS. DENG is 18th. They would have 4 guys in the top 20 in FG attempts.

None of them shoot 3's and none of them pass. No...there wouldnt be chemsitry issues.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Guess which point guard leads the league in field goal attempts? Wait for it...


Derrick Rose. 894 attempts and he is the only PG in the top ten in fg attempts. By the way, he has more attempts than CHRIS BOSh. LOL

He is 14th in assists. If that isnt a shoot first pg, i dont know what is. As a matter of fact, that is the definition.

Yeah sure and the situation that he has now is really similar to the one proposed. As Scavs said they dont have many other offensive options at the present time. Perhaps if you knew about the injury issues that the bulls have been dealing with not to mention the precarious situation that the head coach is in you wuld understand why he NEEDS to be the focal point of the offense.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

First of all, I still have to understand how should Chicago could get it done and New York can't capwise unless some serious trades are made. I posted the links earlier.

Accoring to your links if the bulls can dump KH and TT for expiring contracts they will be on the hook for $22 million next year. While a lot has to happen it is not that far out of the realm of possibility that these trades can happen. It leaves you with approx $47 mill in space. But you have an allstar PG, a pretty good SF, a top 5 rebounder, a solid 6th man and Taj Gibson who has played really well.

The Knicks have almost no chance of getting below $27 million and have a Euro perimeter player, a fair SF, a really raw rookie PF, a useless PF and a tub of **** coming back next year.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Accoring to your links if the bulls can dump KH and TT for expiring contracts they will be on the hook for $22 million next year. While a lot has to happen it is not that far out of the realm of possibility that these trades can happen. It leaves you with approx $47 mill in space. But you have an allstar PG, a pretty good SF, a top 5 rebounder, a solid 6th man and Taj Gibson who has played really well.

The Knicks have almost no chance of getting below $27 million and have a Euro perimeter player, a fair SF, a really raw rookie PF, a useless PF and a tub of **** coming back next year.

The Knicks could get below that number easily. Package one of their expiring contracts (tub of **** or jefferies) with a draft pick (certainly going to be high) and voila! On top of that, you will have room to spare.

Lots of benefits to playing in NY and plus the following year they will have even more room.

The pieces are complimentary and there is room to add more the following year. It could work easier for NY than chicago.

[horseofcourse]

why are you so emotional about this stuff dala??

[packerbacker7964]

The East better hope the Cavs don't Jameson or Stou. from the Suns because it will be all for 2nd place for the rest of them.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by packerbacker7964

The East better hope the Cavs don't Jameson or Stou. from the Suns because it will be all for 2nd place for the rest of them.

If the other teams don't do something significant, it will be all for second place with or without either of those guys.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

why are you so emotional about this stuff dala??

Im not. I just have an idea on how teams are made. Some don't. Its not about throwing a bunch of guys together and seeing if they can play together. Guys have to get their shots. There has to be players to do different roles. You can't say "derrick Rose is the point guard and i dont see a problem with that". That is an ignorant statement. You are asking a guy that has never distributed the ball in his life, never played second fiddle in his life and never had to spot up in his life to suddenly have to do these things and expect it to work simply because he is talented. Basketball doesnt work that way.

Would they be good? Sure they would be good. Wade and Bosh would be good with anyone around them. At the same time, in order to seriously contend, you would need a guy to get them their shots and hit an open three.

Anyway, it is silly to argue. I think Wade and Bosh end up together and I would agree that Chicago has a shot (isnt it wade's hometown?) but no more so than New York or Miami and I think Miami would be the favorite. What is your opinion?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Im not. I just have an idea on how teams are made. Some don't. Its not about throwing a bunch of guys together and seeing if they can play together. Guys have to get their shots. There has to be players to do different roles. You can't say "derrick Rose is the point guard and i dont see a problem with that". That is an ignorant statement. You are asking a guy that has never distributed the ball in his life, never played second fiddle in his life and never had to spot up in his life to suddenly have to do these things and expect it to work simply because he is talented. Basketball doesnt work that way.

Would they be good? Sure they would be good. Wade and Bosh would be good with anyone around them. At the same time, in order to seriously contend, you would need a guy to get them their shots and hit an open three.

Anyway, it is silly to argue. I think Wade and Bosh end up together and I would agree that Chicago has a shot (isnt it wade's hometown?) but no more so than New York or Miami and I think Miami would be the favorite. What is your opinion?

She acts like Rose is Iverson. He isnt. That he has never played second fiddle doesnt mean he has issues, it just means he has been better than his teammates. The thought that he couldnt fit with Wade in the backsourt is beyond dumb. This isnt baseball where you cant ask Jim Thome to bunt and steal bases because he physically cant do it. Players adapt to different roles all the time. Look at Channing Frye. he went from being pretty much a stiff low post, high post player to a good perimeter shooter because he plays on a different team that has a different use for him. The idea that Rose cant play the point on a good team with other weapons is misguided. He idea that he wouldnt play second fiddle to one of the games very best players who would compliment his game and make him better is misguided.