Most Talented 3yo since the 90's?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Raw talent: Holy Bull; Accomplishment: A.P. Indy; Potential: Bernardini

I know this is all opinions, so what makes you think Holy Bull had more raw talent than Bernardini?


You're Accomplishment selection could make for another very interesting topic; What sire has the most combined accomplishments? (sire & individual race record)

[pmayjr]

Seriously, if Lost in the Fog would've won the B.C. Sprint last year- Could you leave him out?

About Bernardini- It sucks that him and Barbaro weren't able to develop a rivalry. He (Bernardini) might be a better horse, but those 2 goin at it would've made for a great summer (if Barbaro wouldn't have been subsequently retired for any other reason already).

How can Secretariat be overrated when he wins the T.C.? The first one to do it in what was it? 25 years? So he lost some subsequent races. But the T.C. accomplishment should stand on it's own. It's not his fault if the competition level wasn't there. But with that being said... why is he even being brought up? "Since the '90s" is the topic here.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

Seriously, if Lost in the Fog would've won the B.C. Sprint last year- Could you leave him out?

About Bernardini- It sucks that him and Barbaro weren't able to develop a rivalry. He (Bernardini) might be a better horse, but those 2 goin at it would've made for a great summer (if Barbaro wouldn't have been subsequently retired for any other reason already).

How can Secretariat be overrated when he wins the T.C.? The first one to do it in what was it? 25 years? So he lost some subsequent races. But the T.C. accomplishment should stand on it's own. It's not his fault if the competition level wasn't there. But with that being said... why is he even being brought up? "Since the '90s" is the topic here.

Because some would rather talk about hypotheticals, and some don't know much about racing since the days of Man of War and Secrtariat.
Bogus opinions and "maybe" races don't gain support.
Times are numbers, and that's a fact!

[todko]

There is some debate here about "talented" versus "accomplished". To me, the two go hand in hand.

The two go hand in hand because "talented" horses "accomplish" wins in major races. Sure, there are other talented horses who don't accomplish much (Ghostzapper at 3). It's a lot of conjecture to say such and such horse is so "talented" if the horse never actually wins anything major.

In the case of Ghostzapper, he made his case as an older horse more so than as a 3 year old due to nagging minor injuries in his 3 year old season. He was clearly one of the fastest horses ever. Since the '70s and early '80s (I was a kid then), his race in the Breeders Cup Classic clearly stands out as the most stunning performance I've seen.

Smarty Jones was very talented. His Preakness, coming after a Kentucky Derby win, was more impressive to me than a rested Bernardini's Preakness this year.

I don't think we saw anything near what Barbaro's talent really was. Derby fractions of :46 and change, 1:10 and change, and the 2nd fastest final quarter (only Secretariat ran a faster final) in Derby history. Never asked, never touched. Wins on turf, dirt, slop, you name it. Late foal -- 4/29. He had a lot of talent to show.

I'm not too high on Bernardini. Every race his main competition was injured (Barbaro, Sunriver, Bluegrass Cat) and his fractions in the Travers were nothing to write home about. And he was definitely urged in the Travers -- hit and urged. He only beat a staggering SNS by 5 lengths or so in the Preakness after skipping the Derby. Skipped the Belmont. Ran against nothing (with Sunriver and BC injured during races) since. His races looked more visually impressive than they really are. Maybe he'll prove me wrong later -- but I doubt it.

This year, other than Barbaro, Bright One is intriguing. 1:33 and change at CD for a mile. Saw him in person the following race and he is the real deal. He's a little green but he can fly.

Discreet Cat looks to be a possible freak. Definitely would have won the Travers with ease. Maybe he's a Ghostzapper type -- freakishly fast but cant' run very often.

Most talented 3 year old since 1990 -- probably go with Barbaro. 13th fastest Derby of all time -- 2nd fastest closing quarter. Came back on his toes nipping at the pony. It was like he was saying, "you call that a Derby? . . when we gonna race? . . . let's go around again". I don't think there was any 3 year since 1990 who could have beaten Barbaro at a distance.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by todko

Discreet Cat looks to be a possible freak. Definitely would have won the Travers with ease. Maybe he's a Ghostzapper type -- freakishly fast but cant' run very often.

Discreet Cat would " definitely " have won the Travers? With ease no less!

Originally Posted by todko

There is some debate here about "talented" versus "accomplished". To me, the two go hand in hand.

The two go hand in hand because "talented" horses "accomplish" wins in major races. Sure, there are other talented horses who don't accomplish much (Ghostzapper at 3). It's a lot of conjecture to say such and such horse is so "talented" if the horse never actually wins anything major.

In the case of Ghostzapper, he made his case as an older horse more so than as a 3 year old due to nagging minor injuries in his 3 year old season. He was clearly one of the fastest horses ever. Since the '70s and early '80s (I was a kid then), his race in the Breeders Cup Classic clearly stands out as the most stunning performance I've seen.

Smarty Jones was very talented. His Preakness, coming after a Kentucky Derby win, was more impressive to me than a rested Bernardini's Preakness this year.

I don't think we saw anything near what Barbaro's talent really was. Derby fractions of :46 and change, 1:10 and change, and the 2nd fastest final quarter (only Secretariat ran a faster final) in Derby history. Never asked, never touched. Wins on turf, dirt, slop, you name it. Late foal -- 4/29. He had a lot of talent to show.

I'm not too high on Bernardini. Every race his main competition was injured (Barbaro, Sunriver, Bluegrass Cat) and his fractions in the Travers were nothing to write home about. And he was definitely urged in the Travers -- hit and urged. He only beat a staggering SNS by 5 lengths or so in the Preakness after skipping the Derby. Skipped the Belmont. Ran against nothing (with Sunriver and BC injured during races) since. His races looked more visually impressive than they really are. Maybe he'll prove me wrong later -- but I doubt it.

This year, other than Barbaro, Bright One is intriguing. 1:33 and change at CD for a mile. Saw him in person the following race and he is the real deal. He's a little green but he can fly.

Discreet Cat looks to be a possible freak. Definitely would have won the Travers with ease. Maybe he's a Ghostzapper type -- freakishly fast but cant' run very often.

Most talented 3 year old since 1990 -- probably go with Barbaro. 13th fastest Derby of all time -- 2nd fastest closing quarter. Came back on his toes nipping at the pony. It was like he was saying, "you call that a Derby? . . when we gonna race? . . . let's go around again". I don't think there was any 3 year since 1990 who could have beaten Barbaro at a distance.

Bernardini does not need your approval.

[pmayjr]

DowntheStrecth... sorry that I'am talking hypotheticals. But I still pose to you or anyone else the same question. IF LITF would've won the BC Sprint, would he at least be in the conversation?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

DowntheStrecth... sorry that I'am talking hypotheticals. But I still pose to you or anyone else the same question. IF LITF would've won the BC Sprint, would he at least be in the conversation?

No. Only by cheerleaders on the internet.

How about if Ghostzapper had run in the BC Sprint and duplicated his Vosburgh?

Hypotheticals in racing are especially ridiculous.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

DowntheStrecth... sorry that I'am talking hypotheticals. But I still pose to you or anyone else the same question. IF LITF would've won the BC Sprint, would he at least be in the conversation?

Pmayjr,
Don't get me wrong, I loved Lost in the Fog.
Had he gone on, your guess is as good as mine regarding the BC sprint.
Heck, if it was up to me, I'd love to see him go against Squirtle Squirt because they both won the King's Bishop.
Maybe when I die and I'm sitting in the big clubhouse box in heaven, I'll get to see that race.
I'm sure I'll be there for a very long time, and all the races that I wish coulda been might very well be.
I'll save you a seat next to me.
DTS

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I know this is all opinions, so what makes you think Holy Bull had more raw talent than Bernardini?


You're Accomplishment selection could make for another very interesting topic; What sire has the most combined accomplishments? (sire & individual race record)

I am a HUGE Bernardini fan, but he has unanswered questions. I could have listed him for the most raw talent, but I wanted to spread the love. Also, I believe Seattle Slew and Native Dance have the most impressive race /sire records. I give the edge to Slew, but that is to be expected since I am named for his sire.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I know this is all opinions, so what makes you think Holy Bull had more raw talent than Bernardini?


You're Accomplishment selection could make for another very interesting topic; What sire has the most combined accomplishments? (sire & individual race record)

Raw talent and combined accomplishments? Slew, hands down.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I know this is all opinions, so what makes you think Holy Bull had more raw talent than Bernardini?


You're Accomplishment selection could make for another very interesting topic; What sire has the most combined accomplishments? (sire & individual race record)

what sire? it would have to be between native dancer, northern dancer, seattle slew for more modern horses. domino if you go way back. bold ruler is another who excelled on dirt and in the shed.
i guess out of those i just listed, i'd go with northern dancer. dual classic winner, and a worldwide influence on the breed.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

, i'd go with northern dancer. dual classic winner, and a worldwide influence on the breed.

Slight correction: TRIPLE classic winner, as he won Canada's premier classic race for 3yos the Queen's Plate.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Slight correction: TRIPLE classic winner, as he won Canada's premier classic race for 3yos the Queen's Plate.

er...yeah. lol