Why Lukas went downhill

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, so my bad if it came off that way. But seriously, don't you think that this is the practice of a lot of trainers?

Trust me. He is at a totally differen level. I've honestly never seen anything like it. Nobody even comes close to him. His horses just hobble around the track in the morning. There is no trainer out there with horses that sore.

I'll tell you one thing that hurt Lukas quite a bit. His son was actually a great trainer and his son would run his whole East coast operation at times. Anyway, his son had a terrible accident and had to retire. I think that certainly had an effect. When you lose a great assistant, it hurts. Wayne was always an excellent judge of talent when it came to not only hiring assistants, but picking horses out to buy. When you have great assistants, it make a huge difference. Even back in the day, his assistants oftet times would not listen to him if he was out of town. They would back off the horses when Wayne went out of town.

We can say what we want about Wayne, but I have to hand it to him for what he was able to accomplish. He was way ahead of his time.

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Rupert you are one of the few people that actually know some good insite, i will listen to what you have to say from now on!

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Trust me. He is at a totally differen level. I've honestly never seen anything like it. Nobody even comes close to him. His horses just hobble around the track in the morning. There is no trainer out there with horses that sore.

I'll tell you one thing that hurt Lukas quite a bit. His son was actually a great trainer and his son would run his whole East coast operation at times. Anyway, his son had a terrible accident and had to retire. I think that certainly had an effect. When you lose a great assistant, it hurts. Wayne was always an excellent judge of talent when it came to not only hiring assistants, but picking horses out to buy. When you have great assistants, it make a huge difference. Even back in the day, his assistants oftet times would not listen to him if he was out of town. They would back off the horses when Wayne went out of town.

We can say what we want about Wayne, but I have to hand it to him for what he was able to accomplish. He was way ahead of his time.

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

What was the last grade you finished in school?

I guess you have no idea what the GRE test is and you know stooping to calling names is gonna get you suspended you better chill. I am sure you have already read the P Val post and now your blood is boiling take a walk it will cool you down.

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Look Going Wild is still running here is the PP

Track Date Race Class Distance Condition Jockey FP
Turfway 09/09/06 9 STAKES [3U] All Weather Track, 1M wf Mojica, O 6
Saratoga 08/25/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 7F wf Hill, C 5
Saratoga 07/30/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 6F wf Bejarano, R 2
Churchill 07/09/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 6 1/2F wf Lanerie, C 3
Churchill 06/25/06 5 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F sf Lanerie, C 5
Churchill 06/14/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 1M wf Leparoux, J 6
Churchill 05/18/06 6 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F ft Jacinto, J 5
Turfway 09/17/05 13 Kentucky Cup Sprint S. (Grade 3) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast McKee J 3
Saratoga 08/07/05 9 Amsterdam S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast Velasquez C H 7
Belmont Park 06/11/05 8 Riva Ridge Breeders' Cup S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 7 Furlongs Fast Bailey J D 6
Pimlico 05/21/05 12 Preakness S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 3/16 Miles Fast Albarado R 14
Churchill 05/07/05 10 Kentucky Derby (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/4 Miles Fast Valdivia, Jr. J 18
Keeneland 04/23/05 9 Coolmore Lexington S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Sloppy Stevens G L 5
Aqueduct 04/09/05 9 Wood Memorial S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/8 Miles Fast Espinoza V 7
Santa Anita 03/05/05 5 Santa Catalina S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Fast Bejarano R 2

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by LOSE=GLUE

Look Going Wild is still running here is the PP

Track Date Race Class Distance Condition Jockey FP
Turfway 09/09/06 9 STAKES [3U] All Weather Track, 1M wf Mojica, O 6
Saratoga 08/25/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 7F wf Hill, C 5
Saratoga 07/30/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 6F wf Bejarano, R 2
Churchill 07/09/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 6 1/2F wf Lanerie, C 3
Churchill 06/25/06 5 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F sf Lanerie, C 5
Churchill 06/14/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 1M wf Leparoux, J 6
Churchill 05/18/06 6 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F ft Jacinto, J 5
Turfway 09/17/05 13 Kentucky Cup Sprint S. (Grade 3) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast McKee J 3
Saratoga 08/07/05 9 Amsterdam S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast Velasquez C H 7
Belmont Park 06/11/05 8 Riva Ridge Breeders' Cup S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 7 Furlongs Fast Bailey J D 6
Pimlico 05/21/05 12 Preakness S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 3/16 Miles Fast Albarado R 14
Churchill 05/07/05 10 Kentucky Derby (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/4 Miles Fast Valdivia, Jr. J 18
Keeneland 04/23/05 9 Coolmore Lexington S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Sloppy Stevens G L 5
Aqueduct 04/09/05 9 Wood Memorial S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/8 Miles Fast Espinoza V 7
Santa Anita 03/05/05 5 Santa Catalina S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Fast Bejarano R 2

Going Wild is a perfect example of a horse that Lukas kept running after he was hurt. If he would have stopped on the horse right after the Lexington and given the horse six months off, the horse might have come back fine. Instead, he kept running the horse until the horse was so messed up that no amount of time off would help. It's a shame. That horse actually had a lot of talent.

By the way, Wayne does have some good qualities. He is an incredibly hard worker and he is very driven. He's a real workaholic. To be a successful trainer, it takes a lot more than just being good at training. You have to have good help. You have to have good vets and you have to know how to properly utilize your vets. You have to have good people skills to attract owners. You have to be a good self-promoter and things like that. Wayne is very presentable and make sa great first impression on people. He is impeccably dressed and well-spoken. He's a bright guy. That's hal the battle. It helps to be a good business man. Wayne had all these qualities. Not only that, but the guys is just a winner. He almost reminds me a litle of Donald Trump in a way. He comes across as a guy who does everything first-class. His barn is absolutely immaculate. He always had the nicest and cleanest barn on the backstretch. He would probably be better than practically anyone at teaching a class on "the business of training".

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

If calling you an idiot gets me suspended, so be it. Far worse is said on here every day. You would know a thing or two about being suspended right? I know what the GRE test is, and judging by your vocabulary, and overall grasp of the english language I think you may be mixing it up with GED. Which honestly, makes a lot of sense. Goodnight!!!!

I never said i couldn't go ghetto on someone you don't know where people grow up before they are able to get an education, so it does make alot of sense to people that can relate to not having alot growing up. There is nothing wrong with a GED I have friends that have GED's and do just fine for themselves. Now you have CLOWNED on the HANDICAP and people with GED's and had nothing to add that is of any use.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Never said there was anything wrong with a GED, I just thought maybe you had it mixed up. Please provide an example of me clowning on handicapped people, because I sure can't find it. You seems to be stirring the pot, I clowned on you, because with most of your posts you seem to be begging for someone to do it. Your name alone begs for an argument. On a horse racing board the name Lose=Glue is sort of low class, don't you think?

LOL!!!
Da Hoss here is one good lesson for you to learn. Never argue with someone so stupid as to spell insight, insite.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I know, I know. I guess I was bored during the game last night. I just don't like the dude, and his stupid posts.

I could never be bored enough to talk with him.

[Honu]

Have any of you guys seen the big signs that D. Wayne has at his barns, the one that says how many world champs he's trained and how many derby winners and blah blah blah. Baffert has the same kind of signs at his barn too.
I wonder why they dont have a sign posting how many horses they trained that never made it to the races or that never started after their 3 yr old year, or that broke down in races and in the mornings? I guess that wouldnt be condusive to getting clients and bragging huh.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Honu

Have any of you guys seen the big signs that D. Wayne has at his barns, the one that says how many world champs he's trained and how many derby winners and blah blah blah. Baffert has the same kind of signs at his barn too.
I wonder why they dont have a sign posting how many horses they trained that never made it to the races or that never started after their 3 yr old year, or that broke down in races and in the mornings? I guess that wouldnt be condusive to getting clients and bragging huh.

The same reason why you don't see Colleges put up banners indicating a losing season.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Honu

Have any of you guys seen the big signs that D. Wayne has at his barns, the one that says how many world champs he's trained and how many derby winners and blah blah blah. Baffert has the same kind of signs at his barn too.
I wonder why they dont have a sign posting how many horses they trained that never made it to the races or that never started after their 3 yr old year, or that broke down in races and in the mornings? I guess that wouldnt be condusive to getting clients and bragging huh.

Exactly so .

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

Have any of you guys seen the big signs that D. Wayne has at his barns, the one that says how many world champs he's trained and how many derby winners and blah blah blah. Baffert has the same kind of signs at his barn too.
I wonder why they dont have a sign posting how many horses they trained that never made it to the races or that never started after their 3 yr old year, or that broke down in races and in the mornings? I guess that wouldnt be condusive to getting clients and bragging huh.

I don't think most people even realize how extreme it is. Of all the yearlings and 2 year olds that Lukas gets, I would guess that no more than 1-2% of them are still running competively as 4 and 5 year olds. When do you ever see Lukas winning a race with a 4 or 5 year old? Practically never. I would guess that 98% of his horses don't last passed their 3 year old year. It has nothing to do with the horses being retired for breeding before they get that old. How many horses stand at stud? It can't be more than 5% of his horses. So that certainly doesn't explain 98% of his horses being retired ny the end of their 3 year old year.

If you look at trainers like Mandella, Frankel, Plethcer, etc. I'll bet that around 30-40% of their horses are still around and racing as 4 and 5 year olds. That's a helluva lot higher than 1% or 2%. It's possible that Lukas' number could be a tiny bit higher than my estimate. The number could be more like 5% if you count horses like Going Wild that are still running, but who aren't half the horse that they used to be. Going wild used to be competitive in graded stakes races. Now he can't even win an allowance race. If you count horses like him, then Lukas' number of horses still running as 4 and 5 year olds could possibly be about 5%. But if you are talking about horses that are still at the top of their game, then I think the number is about 1% or 2%.

[Pointg5]

Rupert's views on D Wayne = Brooklytracker's obsession with Jerry Bailey

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Rupert with all due respect you are guessing at the percentages you have posted here. 2 of the other 3 trainers you have mentioned are a completely different kind of trainer than DWL, or Pletcher for that matter. Frankel and Mandella tend to be real patient with their horses, and only a select few race as two year olds. TP and DWL bread and butter is 2 and 3 year old racing. They are given the high priced horses, and have a responsibility to earn the blacktype, so they can be sold, or used as sires or broodmares. Seriously, as much as I like TP, do you really see him with a lot of 4 and 5 year olds. Hardly, just as you don't see Frankel and Mandella with a lot of 2 year olds. Also, Lukas has a ton of horses standing at stud, come on now.

Pletcher does very well with 4 and 5 year olds. He's winning stakes races all the time on both the turf and dirt with older horses. Pletcher has probably won 15-20 stakes races this year with older horses. Just this past weekend he won a $300,000 grass race with the 4 year old filly Ready's Gal at Woodbine. In addition, he's probably won 30 allowance races this with older horses. I think Lukas may have won 1 stakes race this year with an older horse.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Pletcher does very well with 4 and 5 year olds. He's winning stakes races all the time on both the turf and dirt with older horses. Pletcher has probably won 15-20 stakes races this year with older horses. Just this past weekend he won a $300,000 grass race with the 4 year old filly Ready's Gal at Woodbine. In addition, he's probably won 30 allowance races this with older horses. I think Lukas may have won 1 stakes race this year with an older horse.

The more I think about it, Pletcher has probably won more like 30-40 stakes races this year with older horses. Just off the top of my head, thinking about Pletcher horses that ran the last couple of weekends, Go Deputy(6year old) comes to mind. He's won 3 races this year, two of which were graded stakes races. Pletcher had a 4 year old filly this past weekend at Belmont named Ever Elusive. She's won 2 allowance races and a stakes race this year.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well, lets be realistic here, Lukas is no longer the same trainer he once was. In his prime he was a major force in most divisions. Pletcher may do well with the ones he has, but he has no older males making any noise, 2 older turf fillies, no sprinters. He is very loaded in the older filly and mare division, but so was Lukas back in the day.

The main thing that I'm talking about is the percentage of their horses that are still around as 4 and 5 year old and still running well. You can't compare Pletcher to Lukas. Pletcher has a very high percent of his horses that are still around running better than ever as 4 and 5 year olds. Lukas does not.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well I disagree, if Pletcher has 200 or so horses, he has maybe 25 or so, max, still running at 4 or 5. What about Baffert, how many 4 or 5 year olds does he have running? Would you not agree that they are the three biggest when it comes to 2 and 3 year olds, and maybe add in Asmussen. How many 2 year olds does Frankel, Mandella, Drysdale run? Not many. They are different kinds of trainers.

That is true that Frankel, Mandella, and Drysdale are different types of trainers from Lukas. I agree with that. But even though they are different, they still do well with young horses. Mandella just won the Del Mar Futurity. He's won the BC Juvenille and the BC Juvenille Filly. The good trainers listen to their horses. Sure these guys want to win 2 year old races. Sure they want to win the Derby. But they're not going to push the horse if the horse isn't ready or if the horse is getting sore. That's my whole point.

I think Pletcher has more than 25 horses left out of 200. If that was all that he had left, he wouldn't be winning so many races with 4 and 5 year olds. He's won a ton of races with 4 and 5 year olds this year.

[Rupert Pupkin]

One thing that really separates Lukas from the other trainers is that he will practically never give his horses time off, even if they have a serious injury. he will run them until it is basically impossible for them to run any more. Unless they have a broken leg, he'll keep running them. You will practically never see a Lukas horse take 6-12 months off and then come back better than ever. The reason is beacuse he won't turn them out until they're so badly injured that they will never be the same. Once permanent damage is done, the horse will never be the same, even if you give them a year off.

With other trainers, you will often see their horse come back from layoffs better than ever. It happens all the time. The reason is because most trainers will stop on a horse if they have a slight injury. If you stop on them and give them time to heal, there is a good chance that they will come back 100%.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Pure HOGWASH. Less than 5% of horses turned out EVER come back to the ability they had before they left the track. That goes for cheap claimers right up to Triple Crown winners.

This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.
The bashers sure see something i don't see and I will cite two glaring reasons why.
1) Many breeders I know will not go to a new sire they feel was trained by a "juice guy". There are several trainers who have trained a lotta good horses and have yet to have trained a really good sire.
D Wayne has trained many great or good sires. Dynaformer, Carson City, Capote, Cat Thief, Gulch, Grand Slam, Honour and Glory, Jump Start, Is It True, Yes Its True, Mt Livermore, Orientate, Slew City Slew, Salt Lake, Thunder Gulch, etc.
If they were all moved up so much by his "mystery methods" why do they still produce in the shed unlike many other name trainers horses?
2) The guy obviously has been a tremendous teacher of horseman. Todd Pletcher, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshaw, Bobby Barnett, Dallas Stewart, Mike Maker, Kiarin McLaughlin, all learned under him. What are the chances that he doesnt know horsemanship with a roster of pupils like that?

Guys trained so many champions and grade one winners its too long a list to name. Hes also 71 years old. I think I'll cut him some slack.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.
The bashers sure see something i don't see and I will cite two glaring reasons why.
1) Many breeders I know will not go to a new sire they feel was trained by a "juice guy". There are several trainers who have trained a lotta good horses and have yet to have trained a really good sire.
D Wayne has trained many great or good sires. Dynaformer, Carson City, Capote, Cat Thief, Gulch, Grand Slam, Honour and Glory, Jump Start, Is It True, Yes Its True, Mt Livermore, Orientate, Slew City Slew, Salt Lake, Thunder Gulch, etc.
If they were all moved up so much by his "mystery methods" why do they still produce in the shed unlike many other name trainers horses?
2) The guy obviously has been a tremendous teacher of horseman. Todd Pletcher, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshaw, Bobby Barnett, Dallas Stewart, Mike Maker, Kiarin McLaughlin, all learned under him. What are the chances that he doesnt know horsemanship with a roster of pupils like that?

Guys trained so many champions and grade one winners its too long a list to name. Hes also 71 years old. I think I'll cut him some slack.

I'm not saying a horse will come back better than ever if they had a serious injury. I'm saying that they will often times come back better than ever if you turn them out before a problem gets serious.

If you look at many of the good trainers, their win percentage is just as high with a horse coming off a 6 month layoff as with a horse that just ran a month ago. I don't have Pletcher's stats in front of me for horses coming back from a 6 months to a 1 year layoff, but I know his win percenatge for horses that haven't run for somewhere between 45 days and 6 months is 26%.

If you think that Lukas taught any of those guys how to trainn, you are crazy. He only hired guys that were great horsemen.