Spanish Chestnut....

[Seattleallstar]

a horse they messed up so bad its really a damn shame, could of been a useful sprinter/miler.

[King Glorious]

This horse has never possessed the speed to be a top level sprinter and can't run well past a mile. He might have been able to be a decent miler but in this country, there aren't many races for those types and he wasn't going to beat the better ones anyway. Extremely overrated horse in my opinion.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

This horse has never possessed the speed to be a top level sprinter and can't run well past a mile. He might have been able to be a decent miler but in this country, there aren't many races for those types and he wasn't going to beat the better ones anyway. Extremely overrated horse in my opinion.

How can you say he was overrated? Nobody ever thought he was anything more than a lower level, GIII type horse. Is that overrated? I don't think so; he's shown he can compete on that level.

A horse that was used as a f-ing rabbit in the biggest race on the planet just can't, by nature, be overrated.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

How can you say he was overrated? Nobody ever thought he was anything more than a lower level, GIII type horse. Is that overrated? I don't think so; he's shown he can compete on that level.

A horse that was used as a f-ing rabbit in the biggest race on the planet just can't, by nature, be overrated.

I knew of people that were saying he was a legit Derby contender after he won that race at Santa Anita. I knew of many people that thought after the Derby that if he were dropped back down to sprints or miles, that he would be a grade one type. For those people, I say he was overrated. For those of us that thought he wouldn't amount to much more than a competitive (but non-winning) grade three type, I guess u could say we didn't overrate him.

Just because he ran in the Derby doesn't mean that he can't be called overrated. Many times u see trainers enter horses that have no shot in a race to be a rabbit for their main horse. Does that make all of those rabbits legit horses? No. So just because Spanish Chestnut was used as a rabbit in the Derby doesn't make him exempt from being able to be put in the overrated category for those that thought he'd be much.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I knew of people that were saying he was a legit Derby contender after he won that race at Santa Anita. I knew of many people that thought after the Derby that if he were dropped back down to sprints or miles, that he would be a grade one type. For those people, I say he was overrated. For those of us that thought he wouldn't amount to much more than a competitive (but non-winning) grade three type, I guess u could say we didn't overrate him.

Just because he ran in the Derby doesn't mean that he can't be called overrated. Many times u see trainers enter horses that have no shot in a race to be a rabbit for their main horse. Does that make all of those rabbits legit horses? No. So just because Spanish Chestnut was used as a rabbit in the Derby doesn't make him exempt from being able to be put in the overrated category for those that thought he'd be much.

My point in saying he was a rabbit is that obviously nobody at that time thought he was a competitive horse at that level. I never thought he was more than what he is now, and thought it was sad that they'd put him through the Derby given his chances.

[JJP]

Whether or not Spanish Chestnut is/was overrated isn't relevant. Not when you see the claim that King Glorious was the best horse in the past 20 years. And Java Gold second. Did King Glorious ever win past a mile and a sixteenth? Did he even win going THAT far? He never beat high quality horses. Yeah Java Gold beat a good field in the 87 Travers but that was in the slop. What was his biggest win on a dry track? Go For Wand was never as good as Personal Ensign, Bayakoa or the other great mares in the late 80s/early 90s. I guess since she died on the track we have to elevate our opinion of her?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by JJP

Whether or not Spanish Chestnut is/was overrated isn't relevant. Not when you see the claim that King Glorious was the best horse in the past 20 years. And Java Gold second. Did King Glorious ever win past a mile and a sixteenth? Did he even win going THAT far? He never beat high quality horses. Yeah Java Gold beat a good field in the 87 Travers but that was in the slop. What was his biggest win on a dry track? Go For Wand was never as good as Personal Ensign, Bayakoa or the other great mares in the late 80s/early 90s. I guess since she died on the track we have to elevate our opinion of her?

Let's answer a couple of your questions.

YES, King Glorious DID win going beyond a 8.5f. Couple of little races called the Ohio Derby and the HASKELL. Perhaps u've never heard of the Haskell so I'll forgive u here. Both of those races were at 9f. I once asked Chris McCarron what he thought of KG's chances against the likes of Easy Goer and Sunday Silence since they were all in the same year. He said that up to a mile, those others would have no shot to catch KG but that he thought they would beat him if it was 9-10f. No disgrace there. Who says that a horse HAS to race at 9-10 to be considered a top horse?

Yes, Java Gold's win in the Travers was in the slop. But when he beat 4yo Broad Brush and Gulch in the Whitney, and when he beat Polish Navy and 4yo Nostalgia's Star in the Marlboro Cup, the track was dry. I'm sure that u remember that the Whitney was (still is) one of the top races of the year for older horses as was the Marlboro Cup. If u remember the situation that year, Java Gold was probably the 1-9 favorite to be named HOY that year. That was his price in the JCGC, where a win would have virtually clinched the title. Unfortunately, he suffered a bruised foot during the running of the race and finished second to Creme Fraiche, a course and distance specialist (Belmont Stakes, back to back JCGC wins all at 12f).

Was Go for Wand as good as Personal Ensign or Bayakoa? Who's to say. Could any of those horses u think were better have done what Go for Wand did in the summer of her 3yo season? GfW won the 7f Test in 1:21 flat then came back NINE DAYS LATER and won the 10f Alabama in 2:00 4/5 under a hand ride. I don't care what track, what the conditions......u don't find 3yo fillies running 2:00 4/5 and especially ones that are that versatile to have run 1:21 flat barely a week earlier. Then to top it off, she comes back a couple of months later and runs 9f in 1:45 4/5, just missing Secretariat's track record at Belmont. Those three things are extraordinary feats for any horse, even moreso when it's a 3yo filly. U are comparing the 3yo GfW with the 4yo Personal Ensign and the even more mature Bayakoa. And before GfW broke down, she was running step for step with Bayakoa. U don't have to agree that she's better. But she's definitely right there in the conversation. Her death has no bearing on what she did on the track.

In any case, this was NOT a claim that these ARE the best horses of the past 20 years. Just the best ones in MY opinion. U are more than welcome to have a contrary opinion.

[Hwjb]

Tabor should take some advice from his good friend JP McManus, send Spanish Chestnut to Jonjo O'Neill's and mop up all the fancy prices for the Supreme Novices' Hurdle on Day 1 of the Cheltenham Festival!