"Spaced" Races And "Fresh" Horses Are Killing The Sport

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

As usual, this is right on the money. RIGHT ON THE MONEY.

Most stakes horses out there are not worth tens of millions. A very high percentage of them can make more on the track than they will be worth for breeding. It is only a very small percentage of horses whose trainer's every move is to best maximize the horse's value for breeding.

So to say that this is a different times with regards to trainers' goals, that's simply not true. It may be true with well less than 1% of the horses out there but it is not true with most horses. Most stakes horses are not worth tens of millions of dollars for breeding. The goal of every trainer out there is for his horses to make as much money as they can on the track. The only exception to this rule is the rare horse that is worth millions for breeding.

[Danzig]

also, used to be that breeders bred to race. they were running the offspring of the broodmares and stallions they had developed. showing off what they had done, looking for racing success to show the world what they had done as far as breeding a better horse. those days are long gone. most are commercial operations, just another business venture.

[Five Star Derek]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

also, used to be that breeders bred to race. they were running the offspring of the broodmares and stallions they had developed. showing off what they had done, looking for racing success to show the world what they had done as far as breeding a better horse. those days are long gone. most are commercial operations, just another business venture.

Your absolutely right. This is why the two year old sales are so hard to stomach

[Danzig]

all those crooked foals, send them to the vet, fix 'em up and no one the wiser. and everyone wants in the game, so it's only going to get worse! gotta provide product for the consumer!!

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The goal of every trainer out there is for his horses to make as much money as they can on the track. The only exception to this rule is the rare horse that is worth millions for breeding.

Very, very naive.

All it takes is one big syndication deal ... and the trainer's share is enough to fix him up for life.

Sure it's nice to train winners of $1,000,000 and make $100,000 ... but it's a lot of hard work and you certainly can't be financially secure from it.

But get that $40,000,000 syndication deal ... and you make a few million in one swoop ... the equivalent of 25 years of toiling in the salt mines.

That's the main objective of today's trainers of G1-level horses ... win that one big one ... and start the negotiations.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Very, very naive.

All it takes is one big syndication deal ... and the trainer's share is enough to fix him up for life.

Sure it's nice to train winners of $1,000,000 and make $100,000 ... but it's a lot of hard work and you certainly can't be financially secure from it.

But get that $40,000,000 syndication deal ... and you make a few million in one swoop ... the equivalent of 25 years of toiling in the salt mines.

That's the main objective of today's trainers of G1-level horses ... win that one big one ... and start the negotiations.

You obviously did not read my post. I was not talking about horses that are worth tens of millions. I was talking about the other 99.9% of horses out there. By the way, even with the huge deals the trainers usually don't make big money unless the owners are very generous. The trainer will usually just get 1 share in the horse. With a really good horse like Saint Liam, Dutrow would make much more money if the horse kept on running. He's not going to make much from having 1 share in the horse. How much is 1 share worth in Saint Liam worth? Maybe $100,000. When the horse won the BC Classic, Dutrow made $300,000 in one day.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You obviously did not read my post. I was not talking about horses that are worth tens of millions. I was talking about the other 99.9% of horses out there. By the way, even with the huge deals the trainers usually don't make big money unless the owners are very generous. The trainer will usually just get 1 share in the horse.

That's not the way it works ...

... trainers usually get 2 - 4 shares ... making a $1,000,000 per share syndication worth $2-4 million for the trainer ...

... and it takes most trainers and awful lot of years to make that sort of money.

Meanwhile ... where is your football-field-long list of horses who have had multi-year championships or near-championships from a race-spacing regimen?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

That's not the way it works ...

... trainers usually get 2 - 4 shares ... making a $1,000,000 per share syndication worth $2-4 million for the trainer ...

... and it takes most trainers and awful lot of years to make that sort of money.

Meanwhile ... where is your football-field-long list of horses who have had multi-year championships or near-championships from a race-spacing regimen?

Why would you want a multi-year championship when so much money is available in the breeding shed without it ?

I mean you want evidence to prove your theory even though you agree that there is no incentive to campaign like you want horses to.

[blackthroatedwind]

I wouldn't suggest this is the only reason, by any stretch of the imagination, but isn't there some concern that one reason many of these horses have such well spaced campaigns is often the recovery time from whatever medication they may be using is substantial?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wouldn't suggest this is the only reason, by any stretch of the imagination, but isn't there some concern that one reason many of these horses have such well spaced campaigns is often the recovery time from whatever medication they may be using is substantial?

Recovery time from the medication itself?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wouldn't suggest this is the only reason, by any stretch of the imagination, but isn't there some concern that one reason many of these horses have such well spaced campaigns is often the recovery time from whatever medication they may be using is substantial?

I think the lasix alone knocks them out. It just completely dehydrates them. I would think the lasix alone probably makes it so it takes a few more days to recover, especially if it's a very hot day.

[Cajungator26]

Since we're on the discussion of soundness, I want to know which stallions are the best to go to for SOUNDNESS. The day I own a racehorse, I want one that isn't fragile.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Since we're on the discussion of soundness, I want to know which stallions are the best to go to for SOUNDNESS. The day I own a racehorse, I want one that isn't fragile.

The stallion is only 1/2 of the equation.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Very, very naive.

All it takes is one big syndication deal ... and the trainer's share is enough to fix him up for life.

Sure it's nice to train winners of $1,000,000 and make $100,000 ... but it's a lot of hard work and you certainly can't be financially secure from it.

But get that $40,000,000 syndication deal ... and you make a few million in one swoop ... the equivalent of 25 years of toiling in the salt mines.

That's the main objective of today's trainers of G1-level horses ... win that one big one ... and start the negotiations.

What in the world are you talking about? When are there $40 million syndication deals? In the current decade(2000-2006), I think there was only one horse syndicated for more than $20 million. Smarty Jones was synidcated for something in the neighborhood of $40-50 million. I don't think there was one other horse that was even above $20 million. Even a BC Classic winner like Saint Liam only was sydicated for about $8 million. I don't think that trainers normally get more than 1-2 shares. I can check on this, but even if you are right and Dutrow got 4 shares in Saint Liam, that means the deal would have been worth around $300,000 for Dutrow. He made that in one day when the horse won the BC Classic. He would have been much better off if the horse kept running.

It's a 100,000-1 shot to get a horse that's worth $40 million. You act like it's a regular occurence. I think there's only been 1 in the last 10 years.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What in the world are you talking about? When are there $40 million syndication deals? In the current decade(2000-2006), I think there was only one horse syndicated for more than $20 million. Smarty Jones was synidcated for something in the neighborhood of $40-50 million. I don't think there was one other horse that was even above $20 million. Even a BC Classic winner like Saint Liam only was sydicated for about $8 million. I don't think that trainers normally get more than 1-2 shares. I can check on this, but even if you are right and Dutrow got 4 shares in Saint Liam, that means the deal would have been worth around $300,000 for Dutrow. He made that in one day when the horse won the BC Classic. He would have been much better off if the horse kept running.

It's a 100,000-1 shot to get a horse that's worth $40 million. You act like it's a regular occurence. I think there's only been 1 in the last 10 years.

They syndicated Fusaichi Pegasus for over 60 million in 2000

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

They syndicated Fusaichi Pegasus for over 60 million in 2000

Yes, you are right. I was thinking that was back in the 1990s. It was in fact in 2000. Alright so there have been two horses then, not one.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, you are right. I was thinking that was back in the 1990s. It was in fact in 2000. Alright so there have been two horses then, not one.

Yeah, but...

That is kind of deceiving dont you think? If Empire Makerr would have been syndicated, how much would his deal have been? How about Minehsaft? How about Giants Causeway? How about Ghostzapper?

The reason there arent more mega-syndication deals is because it is a rarity to see a little guy own a blue blooded champion.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yeah, but...

That is kind of deceiving dont you think? If Empire Makerr would have been syndicated, how much would his deal have been? How about Minehsaft? How about Giants Causeway? How about Ghostzapper?

The reason there arent more mega-syndication deals is because it is a rarity to see a little guy own a blue blooded champion.

Yes, I guess that's true. I forgot about some of those horses. But still, there aren't many horses that are worth $30 or $40 million for breeding when they retire. I was thinking we get 1 every 10 years. Maybe we get 4-5 every 10 years. The point is there aren't a lot of them. BB was acting like there are plenty of horses that are worth $40 million when they retire. In reality, there are very few. Even a great horse like Saint Liam who won the BC classic was only worth about $8 million. Pleasantly Perfect won the Dubai World Cup and the BC Classic. I think his deal was only worth about $10 million. A trainer is only going to make about $100,000-$300,000 on a deal like that. The trainer would make much more if the horse kept running. The trainers aren't anxious to retire the horses.